Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

He was asked early in Dempsey’s career. Dempsey declines because he hasn’t gained enough experience. It was later that Sam was looking for a paycheck and wanted a Dempsey fight. Langford was past it by the time Dempsey was champion. From 1920 to the year he retired in 1925, Langford lost 15 fights and fought to a draw in 14 of them. He lost 3 of 4 contests to Dempsey’s sparring partner Bill Tate. It was over.

That's not really relevant to what I'm saying, though. All I'm saying is that the quotation was not regarding just one instance. It was regarding the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford. It sounds to me like he was saying he's afraid of Langford in general and didn't want to fight him.

[travestyny]

Let's give some more context to the Dempsey/Jeannette situation.

Would it be correct to say, according to Dempsey's own words, that had Jess Willard pulled this trick that Jeannette pulled, Dempsey would have fought Willard right then and there with no objection.


Does anyone contest that's a fair assessment based on Dempsey's words?

[GhostofDempsey]

That's not really relevant to what I'm saying, though. All I'm saying is that the quotation was not regarding just one instance. It was regarding the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford. It sounds to me like he was saying he's afraid of Langford in general and didn't want to fight him.

It is relevant. Those times he pursued a fight with Dempsey, he was already past it. He said he feared Langford while he was still coming up and inexperienced back in 1915 when Jack was barely 20 years old and Langford ten years his senior. After Dempsey was champ, Sam was a shell of himself. No real significant wins from '20-'25, 15 losses and 14 draws, 3 losses in '20, '21, and '22 to Dempsey's sparring partner. There was no reason for Dempsey to fight him. They passed on Sam out of pity, and knowing the obstacles in making that fight weren't going to be worth it. If Dempsey fights and beats Langford post 1920, there is no glory in that.

[travestyny]

It is relevant. Those times he pursued a fight with Dempsey, he was already past it. He said he feared Langford while he was still coming up and inexperienced back in 1915 when Jack was barely 20 years old and Langford ten years his senior. After Dempsey was champ, Sam was a shell of himself. No real significant wins from '20-'25, 15 losses and 14 draws, 3 losses in '20, '21, and '22 to Dempsey's sparring partner. There was no reason for Dempsey to fight him. They passed on Sam out of pity, and knowing the obstacles in making that fight weren't going to be worth it. If Dempsey fights and beats Langford post 1920, there is no glory in that.

Well that's what I've asked you. Is this quotation about that single time in 1915 or whenever, or is it about the multiple times he was asked to fight him. From what I know, it's not about that one time. It's about a multitude of times he was asked to fight Langford.

Look here.

They tried to get me in the ring with Sam more than once. I reneged each time. I knew he was smaller but I knew he would kill me.

Doesn't seem like he is making any distinction for anyone to assume he only meant early on. Seems he is acknowledging that he wanted no part of any version of Langford. At least not the multiple times that the Langford fight was offered to him. Right?

[GhostofDempsey]

Well that's what I've asked you. Is this quotation about that single time in 1915 or whenever, or is it about the multiple times he was asked to fight him. From what I know, it's not about that one time. It's about a multitude of times he was asked to fight Langford.

Look here.



Doesn't seem like he is making any distinction for anyone to assume he only meant early on. Seems he is acknowledging that he wanted no part of any version of Langford. At least not the multiple times that the Langford fight was offered to him. Right?

Believe what you want since you already have your mind made up here. He refused multiple offers before his own prime, and well after Sam's prime. Not sure what you're reaching for here.

[travestyny]

Believe what you want since you already have your mind made up here. He refused multiple offers before his own prime, and well after Sam's prime. Not sure what you're reaching for here.

Did he? I know of the fight being offered to him once before being champion and he declined. Then there were at least two times when he was offered the fight after being champion, right?

Do you know when else he was offered the fight?


My mind isn't made up about anything yet. We are still gathering information. I'm just saying that from what we have so far, it seems he means he was afraid of Langford in general and not specific to a time period since he mentions not agreeing to multiple offers for this fight. If he qualifies this statement somewhere for you to believe that, then just show us and then we can know it and move on.

[GhostofDempsey]

Did he? I know of the fight being offered to him once before being champion and he declined. Then there were at least two times when he was offered the fight after being champion, right?

Do you know when else he was offered the fight?


My mind isn't made up about anything yet. We are still gathering information. I'm just saying that from what we have so far, it seems he means he was afraid of Langford in general and not specific to a time period since he mentions not agreeing to multiple offers for this fight. If he qualifies this statement somewhere for you to believe that, then just show us and then we can know it and move on.

I'm not sure if every challenge or request was documented. Could it have happened? Perhaps, we're talking over 100 years ago, among some credible and some not-so-credible sources. But the most credible offers I'm familiar with have been well documented across several sources.

[Willie Pep 229]

Let's give some more context to the Dempsey/Jeannette situation.

Would it be correct to say, according to Dempsey's own words, that had Jess Willard pulled this trick that Jeannette pulled, Dempsey would have fought Willard right then and there with no objection.


Does anyone contest that's a fair assessment based on Dempsey's words?

Not even close to fair; actually quite irrelevant.

Is Willard champion? Looking bad against Jeannette may blow Dempsey's title shot; looking good gains him nothing.

For Jeannette it is an opportunity for Dempsey just a pointless gym war.

Not a comparison worth thinking until we know what Dempsey gains or loses.

[travestyny]

Not even close to fair; actually quite irrelevant.

Is Willard champion? Looking bad against Jeannette may blow Dempsey's title shot; looking good gains him nothing.

For Jeannette it is an opportunity for Dempsey just a pointless gym war.

Not a comparison worth thinking until we know what Dempsey gains or loses.

I didn't ask if it was relevant according to you. I asked if it was fair.


No. I don't mean champion Willard. I mean Willard, as a promising fighter, pulls the same trick.

Jack Dempsey, according to his own words, would fight him right then and there with no objection according to his own words, right?

Yes or no?

[travestyny]

I'm not sure if every challenge or request was documented. Could it have happened? Perhaps, we're talking over 100 years ago, among some credible and some not-so-credible sources. But the most credible offers I'm familiar with have been well documented across several sources.

Would a bout in mid 1918 be too soon for Dempsey?