Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

I provided sources that also reveal he turned down several lucrative offers that met his demands. Round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows. You're not demonstrating anything except for your stubbornness and ignorance. You're clinging to your bias out of some romanticized ideology you have with Johnson. In the end, he never defended his titles against any of the best black fighters and admitted to drawing the color line himself. He accepted $29K less than his usual demand to fight Battling Jim, instead of the other three. You can dismiss these facts all day, every day, doesn't change them.

I asked you tp provide a single offer of $30,0000 to defend against any of the black trio that Johnson turned down you came up with NOTHING
I then posted multiple primary sources that show Johnson accepted offers to defend against all three of them and posted a $5000 forfeit as evidence of his good faith and intention to go through with those fights.I then posted the public statements that the New York Commissioners and the McMahon Brothers who were to promote the defence against Jeannette, and the public statement that promoter Hugh McIntosh made to the press as to why he was cancelling the two defences against Langford and McVey.You cannot refute these and so have just ignored them as though I never posted them! You really are a piece of work ,but I won't be the first to have told you that!

I've been encountering know nothing deniers like you on boxing sites for the last 20 years and you all have one thing in common, a hate fuelled agenda against an individual fighter.It's more than sad ,its actually pathetic and if I was a more charitable man,and hadn't had my time wasted by so many , ****s [supply your own epiphet,] like yourself I could actually feel sorry for you.But I'm not

[travestyny]

It's exactly what happened. Ever since I joined this site you've followed me like a lost puppy dog and insulted me, personally attacked me, and then cried like a victim when I dish it back. You have a long and well documented history of this behavior with dozens of members across all the various forums on this site. You've been banned several times because of your behavior. Stop blaming everyone else for your behavior. I can post endless examples of this behavior with multiple members of this site, and not just the trolls who push your buttons either.

I've posted valid sources, videos, interviews, quotes, articles, books, etc. You've either dismissed all of them, refused to read them or called them trash. Then you counter with anonymous sources, out of context quotes, or speculation. Now you expect civility in return? Not sure what world you live in. You had no interest in the History Forum until you followed me here. I became your new project after Spoon wore you out with those 400 pages of posts you argued back and forth with him on...thousands of posts from you spanning almost 3 years, on ONE DAMN THREAD! Yeah, I'm not engaging in that sort of insanity.

False. And I've proven it false here before. No desire to do it again just because you want to keep dragging this in the mud to cover for your posting based on emotion.


I didn't dismiss anything. I asked you about your sources and you began hurling insults. Do I need to go back and show this again?

[GhostofDempsey]

I asked you tp provide a single offer of $30,0000 to defend against any of the black trio that Johnson turned down you came up with NOTHING
I then posted multiple primary sources that show Johnson accepted offers to defend against all three of them and posted a $5000 forfeit as evidence of his good faith and intention to go through with those fights.I then posted the public statements that the New York Commissioners and the McMahon Brothers who were to promote the defence against Jeannette, and the public statement that promoter Hugh McIntosh made to the press as to why he was cancelling the two defences against Langford and McVey.You cannot refute these and so have just ignored them as though I never posted them! You really are a piece of work ,but I won't be the first to have told you that!

I've been encountering know nothing deniers like you on boxing sites for the last 20 years and you all have one thing in common, a hate fuelled agenda against an individual fighter.It's more than sad ,its actually pathetic and if I was a more charitable man,and hadn't had my time wasted by so many , ****s [supply your own epiphet,] like yourself I could actually feel sorry for you.But I'm not

I provided those sources, multiple news articles were cited. You dismissed that. I also showed you how he ducked Jeannette to fight Battling Johnson. You again ignored that fact and chose to deflect with more denial and refusal to see what is right in front of your face. Wipe the fog from your glasses and go back and read some more of what I posted. Or move on and pay yourself on the back in celebration of your mediocrity.

[Anthony342]

That's not at all what happened.

I specifically asked you about your sources and you in return attacked my character. This is verifiable.


The truth is you know your arguments are usually shlt because you post based on emotion, and you do all you can to avoid discussions for that reason. Period. Ironic that you name yourself Ghost, because you are really that see through.


You've already proclaimed that you are going to run away. So I don't know why you keep posting to me with this bs. I told you. I'm here to talk boxing. I'm not interested in you trying to drag the convo into the mud so that you have a faux way to hit the exit. If you don't want to talk boxing, then bounce.

Hit the exit indeed. He plans on ghosting everytime you school him.

[Anthony342]

Naw, I stopped watching. I have the same opinion as Corny: I can't stand the spot-monkies. It used to be a simulated fight, which I could suspend disbelief and get into. Once it became all over-the-top stunts and flips it was impossible for me to suspend disbelief anymore. It pretty much killed it for me.

I understand. That's why it's too bad a tag team like FTR have to be considered a throwback when they're what tag team wrestling really should STILL be. Also kind of sad that The Hardys are the only other team that can have a good tag team match that isn't too much of a spot fest. Lucha Bros and Young Bucks are finally showing some potential and cutting down on the spot monkey stuff.

Also things like ring psychology, story telling and kayfabe can often be a lost art, which is why stars like FTR, MJF and Bray Wyatt when he was still around are great because you didn't and don't see them behind the scenes all the time out of character. They mostly stay in character. In the case of MJF and Wyatt, fans even see it happen at conventions and mostly even in radio and podcast interviews, which the business needs a lot more of these days. At least the heel characters. We don't wanna see somebody cut a nasty heel promo then act all nice online on video or social media. We still want some immersion and the above stars are giving us that. That was also the great thing about Brian Pillman Sr. and his Loose Cannon character. You never knew what was real or what was a work. To keep it somewhat boxing related, they had internet boxing rich kid Logan Paul at Wrestlemania this year in a tag match with The Miz just like last year and had him take another finisher. A few years back they had Tyson Fury in another angle knocking someone out of the ring to win by countout on ppv .

[Ivich]

Just in case you don't get what I'm alluding to above.....

Dempsey admit he was afraid of old Langford, and wanted to fight two White men instead of old Jeannette.


Let that sink in, buddy

Dempsey never said he was afraid of old Langford and why on earth would he ? In1918 Langford was whipped by Jeff Clark a former Dempsey sparring partner who dropped him in the 1st rd with a right hand and clearly beat him.This was the chief supporting bout to Dempsey v Miske2.
Early in1919 Willie Meehan comprehensively out pointed Langford .Sam was in irreversible decline by the time Dempsey hit his stride.According to Joe Jeannette when asked if he would fight him, Dempsey replied," its up to my manager." Again why would Dempsey be scared to box a charity exhibition with a nearly 40 years old Jeannette?
Dan Morgan was responsible for the switching of opponents he gave Joe Bonds Dempsey's original opponent $100 to cry off with a fake injury Jeannette was to box Kid Norfolk on the same bill. Jeannette interviewed by the Hudson Dispatch on Nov 18th 1918 stated ,that he had "been misled into believing that Dempsey had agreed to the match,and did not realize Dempsey was being framed." When Joe asked Jack if he wanted to fight Jack replied," its up to my manager." Dan Morgan stated,"In justice to Dempsey,I believe in my heart he would have gone on with Jeannette had not his manager Jack Kearns refused to permit him to do so." Brooklyn Daily Standard Union Nov18th 1918.
It should be remembered that Dempsey was due to fight Dan Porky Flynn two days after the proposed exhibition.
Dempsey had numerous black sparring partners;
John Lester Johnson
Cocoa Kid
Kid NorKolk
Battling Jim Johnson
George Godfrey
Panama Joe Gans
Big Bill Tate

Why would he be afraid of , past their sell by dates Langford and Jeannette?

[GhostofDempsey]

Hit the exit indeed. He plans on ghosting everytime you school him.

No one is being schooled here ******-lover. Stay in your lane. Your hero traveled the country with a suit case full of d i l d o s. LOL

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey never said he was afraid of old Langford and why on earth would he ? In1918 Langford was whipped by Jeff Clark a former Dempsey sparring partner who dropped him in the 1st rd with a right hand and clearly beat him.This was the chief supporting bout to Dempsey v Miske2.
Early in1919 Willie Meehan comprehensively out pointed Langford .Sam was in irreversible decline by the time Dempsey hit his stride.According to Joe Jeannette when asked if he would fight him, Dempsey replied," its up to my manager." Again why would Dempsey be scared to box a charity exhibition with a nearly 40 years old Jeannette?
Dan Morgan was responsible for the switching of opponents he gave Joe Bonds Dempsey's original opponent $100 to cry off with a fake injury Jeannette was to box Kid Norfolk on the same bill. Jeannette interviewed by the Hudson Dispatch on Nov 18th 1918 stated ,that he had "been misled into believing that Dempsey had agreed to the match,and did not realize Dempsey was being framed." When Joe asked Jack if he wanted to fight Jack replied," its up to my manager." Dan Morgan stated,"In justice to Dempsey,I believe in my heart he would have gone on with Jeannette had not his manager Jack Kearns refused to permit him to do so." Brooklyn Daily Standard Union Nov18th 1918.
It should be remembered that Dempsey was due to fight Dan Porky Flynn two days after the proposed exhibition.
Dempsey had numerous black sparring partners;
John Lester Johnson
Cocoa Kid
Kid NorKolk
Battling Jim Johnson
George Godfrey
Panama Joe Gans
Big Bill Tate

Why would he be afraid of , past their sell by dates Langford and Jeannette?

After his retirement, Dempsey said the only man he ever feared was Langford. This would have been around 1915 while Dempsey was still coming up and not nearly at his best, and Langford was still in his prime. Dempsey had tremendous respect for Langford, and Langford had tremendous respect for Dempsey as well, even considered him the greatest fighter he had ever seen and thought Dempsey would have beaten Wills. In addition to the black sparring partners you mentioned, Dempsey also sparred with McVey, Battling Gahee, and even offered Wills a sparring job when he was preparing for the Willard fight. Wills declined.

Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

[Ivich]

After his retirement, Dempsey said the only man he ever feared was Langford. This would have been around 1915 while Dempsey was still coming up and not nearly at his best, and Langford was still in his prime. Dempsey had tremendous respect for Langford, and Langford had tremendous respect for Dempsey as well, even considered him the greatest fighter he had ever seen and thought Dempsey would have beaten Wills. In addition to the black sparring partners you mentioned, Dempsey also sparred with McVey, Battling Gahee, and even offered Wills a sparring job when he was preparing for the Willard fight. Wills declined.

Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

Yes I have these quotes ,and it was 1916 when Dempsey's manager was that flesh peddler John The Barber Reisler in1916 Dempsey was not ready for the top opposition and was smart enough to know it. Dempsey in real fights with Langford in1919 when Sam had only sight in one eye and was seldom in even good condition and a by then 40 years old Jeannette would not have done either Sam or Joe any good, except monetarily.

[travestyny]

Dempsey never said he was afraid of old Langford and why on earth would he ? In1918 Langford was whipped by Jeff Clark a former Dempsey sparring partner who dropped him in the 1st rd with a right hand and clearly beat him.This was the chief supporting bout to Dempsey v Miske2.
Early in1919 Willie Meehan comprehensively out pointed Langford .Sam was in irreversible decline by the time Dempsey hit his stride.According to Joe Jeannette when asked if he would fight him, Dempsey replied," its up to my manager." Again why would Dempsey be scared to box a charity exhibition with a nearly 40 years old Jeannette?
Dan Morgan was responsible for the switching of opponents he gave Joe Bonds Dempsey's original opponent $100 to cry off with a fake injury Jeannette was to box Kid Norfolk on the same bill. Jeannette interviewed by the Hudson Dispatch on Nov 18th 1918 stated ,that he had "been misled into believing that Dempsey had agreed to the match,and did not realize Dempsey was being framed." When Joe asked Jack if he wanted to fight Jack replied," its up to my manager." Dan Morgan stated,"In justice to Dempsey,I believe in my heart he would have gone on with Jeannette had not his manager Jack Kearns refused to permit him to do so." Brooklyn Daily Standard Union Nov18th 1918.
It should be remembered that Dempsey was due to fight Dan Porky Flynn two days after the proposed exhibition.
Dempsey had numerous black sparring partners;
John Lester Johnson
Cocoa Kid
Kid NorKolk
Battling Jim Johnson
George Godfrey
Panama Joe Gans
Big Bill Tate

Why would he be afraid of , past their sell by dates Langford and Jeannette?

Pretty simple for me.


He said himself that he was afraid of Langford.

"The hell I feared no man. There was one man I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford." -- Jack Dempsey

https://www.badlefthook.com/2009/10/2/1066064/sam-langford-boxings-greatest

As for Jeannette, I've explained my point of view. It's all in Dempsey saying he will fight ANY two white men instead of Jeannette. Seems that it was specifically about his race since he said he didn't agree to fight "a colored boy."

Again, it's all in his own article so I have no reason to disbelieve what he says himself.