Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

ive seen some videos of johnson, and he was most definitely ahead of his time


but he fought many smaller men

Up until the advent of Joe Louis the average weight of Johnson's title challengers was the highest.

[Ivich]

[/B]

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on some things. But the bold type isn't one of them. That has always been a sore spot with me about Johnson.

Johnson signed to defend against Langford and McVey in Australia,but when he skipped bail the fights were cancelled because of Aussie public opinion.Johnson also signed to defend against Jeannette twice in NY only to have the NYAC veto both attempts to stage the fight and threaten any promoter who put it on with the withdrawal of his licence. Johnson campaigned for ******* politicians mentored black fighters such as Kid Cotton and George Godfrey and paid for Sam McVey's funeral. Langford and Jeannette both picked Jim Jeffries to destroy him and received a lost of adverse criticism when Johnson thrashed Jeffries. Jeannette invested in a car chauffeur business that earned him a comfortable living,
nevertheless he still wanted paying for his sparring exhibition with Johnson for the WW2 War Bond Drive.Johnson who was on his uppers, took part for free. Langford ended up broke because he wasted his money on good times ,fancy clothes and hangers on, Joe Woodman ,his manager also lost several fortunes betting on slow horses and Sam sometimes had to fight for nothing to clear Woodman's debts
Wills beat McVey 3 times and lost to him twice.He drew with Jeannette twice and beat Jeannette when Joe was 2 months short of 41 years old.
Now tell me what Jeannette or Langford did for blacks?

[QueensburyRules]

Johnson signed to defend against Langford and McVey in Australia,but when he skipped bail the fights were cancelled because of Aussie public opinion.Johnson also signed to defend against Jeannette twice in NY only to have the NYAC veto both attempts to stage the fight and threaten any promoter who put it on with the withdrawal of his licence. Johnson campaigned for ******* politicians mentored black fighters such as Kid Cotton and George Godfrey and paid for Sam McVey's funeral. Langford and Jeannette both picked Jim Jeffries to destroy him and received a lost of adverse criticism when Johnson thrashed Jeffries. Jeannette invested in a car chauffeur business that earned him a comfortable living,
nevertheless he still wanted paying for his sparring exhibition with Johnson for the WW2 War Bond Drive.Johnson who was on his uppers, took part for free. Langford ended up broke because he wasted his money on good times and hangers on, Joe Woodman ,his manager also lost several fortunes betting on slow horses and Sam sometimes had to fight for nothing to clear Woodman's debts

Now tell me what Jeannette or Langford did for blacks?

- - Well, Joe was an icon as both a fighter and businessman in NJ, and Sam is accorded the greatest duck of all time when an English sporting club fronted JJ the money to sail to OZ to challenge Burns with the stipulation that if he won the title, he'd return straightaway to England to fight Sam.

Instead, JJ beat up his Aussie promoter and hightailed it to Vancouver to bypass Sam forever. There's a reason why he fought noobs McVey and Jeannette multiples x, and Sam only once. I'll let you speculate as to why, but those of us who know need no such speculation.

[Ivich]

- - Well, Joe was an icon as both a fighter and businessman in NJ, and Sam is accorded the greatest duck of all time when an English sporting club fronted JJ the money to sail to OZ to challenge Burns with the stipulation that if he won the title, he'd return straightaway to England to fight Sam.

Instead, JJ beat up his Aussie promoter and hightailed it to Vancouver to bypass Sam forever. There's a reason why he fought noobs McVey and Jeannette multiples x, and Sam only once. I'll let you speculate as to why, but those of us who know need no such speculation.

Johnsons purse for the proposed fight with Langford was £1000, equivalent then to$3000 he signed for that fight prior to winning the title from Burns .Once champion Johnson decided he wanted the same amount of money to defend his title as Burns had received to fight him ie $30,000.You can justifiably argue that Johnson should have honoured the agreement to defend against Burns. You can also argue that Peggy Bettinson the Secretary of the Covent Garden National Sporting Club a man notorious for paying low purses for fights had taken advantage of Johnson and his then manager Sam FitzPatrick because they were almost penniless when they agreed to fight Langford.
Johnson was 30 years old before he got his chance at the title and he intended to make as much money as he could now that he was champ
Johnson never beat up his Australian promoter who was by the way Hugh D McIntosh,they parted on good terms and Johnson later agreed to defend against both Langford and McVey for McIntosh in Australia.
The man Johnson beat up in Australia was his then manager Alex McLean,and this occurred in1907 a full year before Johnspn fought Burns.
Johnson fought McVey 3 times stopping him in their last encounter.
In his fights with Jeannette Joe only managed to win one on a highly debatable foul early in a fight he was losing.Johnson floored Jeannette multiple times in their fights Jeannette never manged to return the favour. Johnson beat up Langford in their only encounter and though it can be argued Langford improved, its also undeniable that so did Johnson!
It wasnt fear that prevented Johnson defending against the leading black trio it was simple economics when his price was met =$30.000 he agreed to fight all three,Barney Curley,Jim Coffroth and Tex Rickard all stated there was no money to be made in an all black heavyweight title fight.Johnson defeated Burns on the 26th of December 1908 and did not leave Australia until February15th 1909 on the steamer ,"Makara". At this time Jim Jeffries had gone into preliminary training to see if it was feasible for him to comeback and challenge Johnson.Simply put Johnson had bigger fish to fry than Langford.
The reason Johnson went to Vancouver was he had an engagement to box a6rds exhibition with Denver Ed Martin at the Vancouver AC.Martin cried off and Victor McLaglen stepped in as a last minute replacement.Their announced weights were Johnson211lbs Mclaglen198lbs.Johnson floored McLaglen30seconds into the fight with a body shot and thereafter took it easy on him allowing him to stay the distance. In closing I'd say you don't know quite as much as you think you do about Johnson and his title defences or lack of them against the black trio.I can back all my claims with primary sourced quotes and newspaper accounts BTW. I recommend you do some more research!

BTW Clay Moyle, the acknowledged expert on Langford and an author who has written a fine biography of him,states that prime for prime Johnson beats Langford! An opinion that was seconded by John L Sullivan.

[Willie Pep 229]

Up until the advent of Joe Louis the average weight of Johnson's title challengers was the highest.

What? Ketchel and Burns? - Of course Willard and Jeffries would tip the scale ( pun intended ) to a higher average but one probably shouldn't evaluate this argument on mean. Mode would be the better measurement of contender sizes if one wants to evaluate fighters prowess by the size of their opponents.

[Ivich]

What? Ketchel and Burns? - Of course Willard and Jeffries would tip the scale ( pun intended ) to a higher average but one probably shouldn't evaluate this argument on mean. Mode would be the better measurement of contender sizes if one wants to evaluate fighters prowess by the size of their opponents.

Al Kaufman,JimJohnson, Tony Ross,Frank Moran,Jim Flynn,JIm Jeffries,Jess Willard.The idea that Johnson only fought little guys is a complete fallacy,compare the weights of his challengers with those of Jeffries or any other heavyweight champion before Joe Louis.

[JAB5239]

Johnson signed to defend against Langford and McVey in Australia,but when he skipped bail the fights were cancelled because of Aussie public opinion.Johnson also signed to defend against Jeannette twice in NY only to have the NYAC veto both attempts to stage the fight and threaten any promoter who put it on with the withdrawal of his licence. Johnson campaigned for ******* politicians mentored black fighters such as Kid Cotton and George Godfrey and paid for Sam McVey's funeral. Langford and Jeannette both picked Jim Jeffries to destroy him and received a lost of adverse criticism when Johnson thrashed Jeffries. Jeannette invested in a car chauffeur business that earned him a comfortable living,
nevertheless he still wanted paying for his sparring exhibition with Johnson for the WW2 War Bond Drive.Johnson who was on his uppers, took part for free. Langford ended up broke because he wasted his money on good times ,fancy clothes and hangers on, Joe Woodman ,his manager also lost several fortunes betting on slow horses and Sam sometimes had to fight for nothing to clear Woodman's debts
Wills beat McVey 3 times and lost to him twice.He drew with Jeannette twice and beat Jeannette when Joe was 2 months short of 41 years old.
Now tell me what Jeannette or Langford did for blacks?

Johnson gets no more a pass grom me for not fighting these top rated contenders than Dempsey does for not fighting Wills. Good information here though, thank you.

[HOUDINI563]

Al Kaufman,JimJohnson, Tony Ross,Frank Moran,Jim Flynn,JIm Jeffries,Jess Willard.The idea that Johnson only fought little guys is a complete fallacy,compare the weights of his challengers with those of Jeffries or any other heavyweight champion before Joe Louis.

Very true.

Those that are truly interested in understanding the greatness of Johnson need to watch closely his skills. I’ve heard so many make such statements as Johnson was no better than Ruiz with his constant holding.

Reality is however that Johnson was NOT holding. Ruiz certainly was. His style was to step into his inside fighting opponents and beat them at their own game. Johnson keenly took the steam off his opponents punches on the inside by tapping their elbows and blocking with the inside of his gloves at his opponents bicep. Punches to Johnson’s head he would block and then bring his opponents gloves back into position in one move.

At distance Johnson had a wonderful jab and could rip combinations while spinning his opponent in the clinches.

If you watch his bout with Flynn (the entire bout is available on the Historic Films website) you can watch these talents in some detail. Flynn complains to the ref that Johnson is holding and afterwards the ref was asked about this complaint. The ref stated “Johnson was not holding. Flynn was free to punch at all times”.

Also Johnson went some ten years without a defeat between 1905 and 1915.

[QueensburyRules]

Johnsons purse for the proposed fight with Langford was £1000, equivalent then to$3000 he signed for that fight prior to winning the title from Burns .Once champion Johnson decided he wanted the same amount of money to defend his title as Burns had received to fight him ie $30,000.You can justifiably argue that Johnson should have honoured the agreement to defend against Burns. You can also argue that Peggy Bettinson the Secretary of the Covent Garden National Sporting Club a man notorious for paying low purses for fights had taken advantage of Johnson and his then manager Sam FitzPatrick because they were almost penniless when they agreed to fight Langford.
Johnson was 30 years old before he got his chance at the title and he intended to make as much money as he could now that he was champ
Johnson never beat up his Australian promoter who was by the way Hugh D McIntosh,they parted on good terms and Johnson later agreed to defend against both Langford and McVey for McIntosh in Australia.
The man Johnson beat up in Australia was his then manager Alex McLean,and this occurred in1907 a full year before Johnspn fought Burns.
Johnson fought McVey 3 times stopping him in their last encounter.
In his fights with Jeannette Joe only managed to win one on a highly debatable foul early in a fight he was losing.Johnson floored Jeannette multiple times in their fights Jeannette never manged to return the favour. Johnson beat up Langford in their only encounter and though it can be argued Langford improved, its also undeniable that so did Johnson!
It wasnt fear that prevented Johnson defending against the leading black trio it was simple economics when his price was met =$30.000 he agreed to fight all three,Barney Curley,Jim Coffroth and Tex Rickard all stated there was no money to be made in an all black heavyweight title fight.Johnson defeated Burns on the 26th of December 1908 and did not leave Australia until February15th 1909 on the steamer ,"Makara". At this time Jim Jeffries had gone into preliminary training to see if it was feasible for him to comeback and challenge Johnson.Simply put Johnson had bigger fish to fry than Langford.
The reason Johnson went to Vancouver was he had an engagement to box a6rds exhibition with Denver Ed Martin at the Vancouver AC.Martin cried off and Victor McLaglen stepped in as a last minute replacement.Their announced weights were Johnson211lbs Mclaglen198lbs.Johnson floored McLaglen30seconds into the fight with a body shot and thereafter took it easy on him allowing him to stay the distance. In closing I'd say you don't know quite as much as you think you do about Johnson and his title defences or lack of them against the black trio.I can back all my claims with primary sourced quotes and newspaper accounts BTW. I recommend you do some more research!

BTW Clay Moyle, the acknowledged expert on Langford and an author who has written a fine biography of him,states that prime for prime Johnson beats Langford! An opinion that was seconded by John L Sullivan.

- - Well, if you have Moyles bio on Langford, that make you one up on me.

However.......Jeannette and McVey were green noobs when JJ cleaned up on them and Sam just hitting 150 lbs. Post JJ, all had much better numeric records than JJ career numbers. When JJ fled to Paris, the French were keen on Jeanette with his French name and Langford to fight him. The $$$ and interest were there, but nope, JJ brought in Battling Johnson to placate the French with a draw stinking so bad that the French quelled the stench by stripping him. They had Langford and Jeannette fight for his title that Langford won in a runaway classic.

Was JJ in the crowd or was he still cowering in his villa? That would've been the time to reclaim his title and show superiority, but he didn't, instead trying to ingratiate himself with the American Judge in charge of his Mann act conviction so he could return home and fight Luther McCarty, the white champion.

That never panned out, and so clearly JJ on the run again to wear out his welcome in Mexico in between Willard where I give him a lot of credit for cross training techniques that allowed him to fight at a high pace for 26 rounds before getting KOed.

[Ivich]

Johnson gets no more a pass grom me for not fighting these top rated contenders than Dempsey does for not fighting Wills. Good information here though, thank you.

He signed to fight them once his price was met ,that the fights did not come off was not his fault.The major difference between him and Dempsey was that he had already soundly beaten his best three black challengers prior to winning the title,andJack and Harry never met in the ring.Personally I think Dempsey would have smoked Wills, big slower guys were his meat,but Wills deserved his chance and never got it. Why is Dempsey rated above Wills?Dempsey took out a prime Fulton in a minute and a half and floored Firpo multiple times before koing him .Fulton went into the 6th? Whlle Wills and Firpo went the distance and the Wild Bull, not in top shape lost a dreary pedestrian decision after being floored on the break.