Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

Langford was not an Uncle Tom playing the yassuh boss game. Just because he was a class act and man of scruples doesn't make him a "coon".

Langford's demeanour around Whites is very well documented,he called them Boss.read Clay Moyle's excellent biography of him,read the reason he turned down invitations to White gatherings, then you'll know about what you speak . I have never used the word you ended your sentence with.

[travestyny]

I don’t participate in every one of your delusional “discussions”. They are redundant and boring. Circle jerks.

Johnson went down in history as the champion who drew the color line against the best black fighters of his title reign. All your whining and denial won’t change that. $1k for Battling Jim, lol.

If he went down in history that way, then surely Dempsey went down in history ducking Wills. I mean the evidence is overwhelming.

"Refusing to fight his #1 contender for over 6 years. lol!" THAT is what history says.

Yet when we talk about Johnson, the evidence is that he agreed to fight all of those guys. You make up excuses to try to hide this fact but THAT is also what history says.

[QueensburyRules]

Langford's demeanour around Whites is very well documented,he called them Boss.read Clay Moyle's excellent biography of him,read the reason he turned down invitations to White gatherings, then you'll know about what you speak . I have never used the word you ended your sentence with.

- - Been called boss plenty in my day, a very familiar US dialectical device meant to denote respect and friendliness absent any supervisory duties.

100% sure it goes back way before my time. Bit like Bugger(s) in Brit casual convo...y'er welcome...

[GhostofDempsey]

If he went down in history that way, then surely Dempsey went down in history ducking Wills. I mean the evidence is overwhelming.

"Refusing to fight his #1 contender for over 6 years. lol!" THAT is what history says.

Yet when we talk about Johnson, the evidence is that he agreed to fight all of those guys. You make up excuses to try to hide this fact but THAT is also what history says.

Wills/Dempsey is disputed, and most of the blame rests with Wills people, Rickard and Kearns for the fight not happening. When we take a more thorough look at Wills resume and video of him fighting it’s easy to see he was boogeyman hyped by the press and his management. A good but not great fighter.

The evidence is overwhelming that Johnson drew the color line and cherry picked his entire career. There is very little context given by casuals who want to credit him for wins over McVey, Jeannette and Langford. The smoking gun was all the offers he turned down for $10k - $20k and even his $30K demand from them, only to accept $1K to get roughed up by Battling Jim. A cherry pick gone wrong.

[Willie Pep 229]

To evaluate the validity of a Wills-Dempsey go in 1922-1923 one doesn't need to use Will's resume.

In fact any black fighter's resume is going to be wanting at some level simply because too many top shelf white fighters refused to cross the color line.

Four points make the Wills-Dempsey fight valid:

1. The public poll shows that enough fans wanted the fight, enough to pack a stadium; if Rickard could sell the Carpentier fight/farce with his 'evil eye punch' promotion he could have sold the Wills fight.

2. Wills was the Negro HW Champion, and while this means nothing to the White haters, to fight fans any unification fight has validity and draws big.

3. Several people/groups claimed a willingness to put up the necessary front money to get the job done.

4. NYSAC (in particular Farley) was willing to scantion the fight giving it the legal protection and the venue it needed.

P.S. Oddly enough 1920 was too early for the fight to occur, despite the fact that 1920 was a great year resume wise for Wills. All the necessary pieces for a black man to challenge for the HW crown were not in place at that time. No promoter, no venue, no money, no New York protection.

P.S.S. Great prize fights don't happen because of great resumes alone, 'deserving' - 'fairness' - 'obligation' are silly words used by posters on this forum and have almost nothing to do with the history of the fight game.

[Ivich]

- - Been called boss plenty in my day, a very familiar US dialectical device meant to denote respect and friendliness absent any supervisory duties.

100% sure it goes back way before my time. Bit like Bugger(s) in Brit casual convo...y'er welcome...

That's not the context Langford used it in.

[Ivich]

Wills/Dempsey is disputed, and most of the blame rests with Wills people, Rickard and Kearns for the fight not happening. When we take a more thorough look at Wills resume and video of him fighting it’s easy to see he was boogeyman hyped by the press and his management. A good but not great fighter.

The evidence is overwhelming that Johnson drew the color line and cherry picked his entire career. There is very little context given by casuals who want to credit him for wins over McVey, Jeannette and Langford. The smoking gun was all the offers he turned down for $10k - $20k and even his $30K demand from them, only to accept $1K to get roughed up by Battling Jim. A cherry pick gone wrong.

But we can credit him with signing to fight Langford,McVey, and Jeannete only to have the fights pulled by outside influences.That is irrefutable and undeniable because we have the locations ,dates,promoters ,purses and the public statements made by them for cancelling those defences..Because Johnson got his financial fingers burned against Battling Jim in no way alters that fact.
Before becoming champion Johnson fought a who's who of the division
Childs
Martin
Griffin
Klondyke
Langford
.Mcvey
Jeannette
.Everett
Black Bill
Joe Butler
Sandy Ferguson
Choynski
Stift
Gardner
Fitzsimmons
Armstrong
Kennedy
Armstrong
Munroe
Harris
Felix
Young Peter Jackson
Russell
Lang
Hart
Flynn
Jeffords

Saying he cherry picked is an absurdity!
As an outsider it seems to me both you and your sparring partner Travestny have let your own personal dislike of a fighter colour your judgement and cloud your perception to the point that neither of you is capable of objectivity concerning these two fighters, You Johnson, he Dempsey.

[GhostofDempsey]

But we can credit him with signing to fight Langford,McVey, and Jeannete only to have the fights pulled by outside influences.That is irrefutable and undeniable because we have the locations ,dates,promoters ,purses and the public statements made by them for cancelling those defences..Because Johnson got his financial fingers burned against Battling Jim in no way alters that fact.
Before becoming champion Johnson fought a who's who of the division
Childs
Martin
Griffin
Klondyke
Langford
.Mcvey
Jeannette
.Everett
Black Bill
Joe Butler
Sandy Ferguson
Choynski
Stift
Gardner
Fitzsimmons
Armstrong
Kennedy
Armstrong
Munroe
Harris
Felix
Young Peter Jackson
Russell
Lang
Hart
Flynn
Jeffords

Saying he cherry picked is an absurdity!
As an outsider it seems to me both you and your sparring partner Travestny have let your own personal dislike of a fighter colour your judgement and cloud your perception to the point that neither of you is capable of objectivity concerning these two fighters, You Johnson, he Dempsey.

It's not irrefutable. Johnson demanded a forfeit to be deposited in a U.S. bank for the proposed fights in Australia, that was a last minute demand that he knew would not be met. He insisted on outrageous side bets that he knew McVey, Langford or Jeannette didn't have the money to cover, but he never made those same demands of Battling Jim.

He did in fact cherry pick. I don't fault him for taking some of those fights for a big paycheck. Ketchel was good money for him, even though he was just a middle weight. Jeffries was good money too, despite coming off a 6-year retirement and having to lose 100 pounds. Johnson had to take advantage of those big paychecks when he could get them. But to say he fought Langford, McVey or Jeannette at their best is deceptive to say the least. To think that Kaufman, Ross or Murray were anything more than pushovers and easy pickings is delusional. We give credit to Johnson for beating Middleweights and fighters who were either too old or too young and inexperienced yet we don't make those allowances for any other fighter since. Fitzsimmons was washed up, Ferguson had no power despite his size, Young Peter Jackson was another small fighter at 5'6" who whose best weight was welterweight...would you credit Larry Holmes beating Ray Leonard as a great win? Mike Tyson beats Marvin Hagler...another great win?

Johnson didn't "get his financial fingers burned" fighting Battling Jim. He abandoned his previous demands that he held for Sam/Sam and Joe, to take what he felt was the easier fight, and it absolved him of drawing a color line. It was a cherry pick gone wrong.

Historians and fans love to romanticize Johnson's prowess as a fighter, but they rarely include this level of context.

[Ivich]

It's not irrefutable. Johnson demanded a forfeit to be deposited in a U.S. bank for the proposed fights in Australia, that was a last minute demand that he knew would not be met. He insisted on outrageous side bets that he knew McVey, Langford or Jeannette didn't have the money to cover, but he never made those same demands of Battling Jim.

He did in fact cherry pick. I don't fault him for taking some of those fights for a big paycheck. Ketchel was good money for him, even though he was just a middle weight. Jeffries was good money too, despite coming off a 6-year retirement and having to lose 100 pounds. Johnson had to take advantage of those big paychecks when he could get them. But to say he fought Langford, McVey or Jeannette at their best is deceptive to say the least. To think that Kaufman, Ross or Murray were anything more than pushovers and easy pickings is delusional. We give credit to Johnson for beating Middleweights and fighters who were either too old or too young and inexperienced yet we don't make those allowances for any other fighter since. Fitzsimmons was washed up, Ferguson had no power despite his size, Young Peter Jackson was another small fighter at 5'6" who whose best weight was welterweight...would you credit Larry Holmes beating Ray Leonard as a great win? Mike Tyson beats Marvin Hagler...another great win?

Johnson didn't "get his financial fingers burned" fighting Battling Jim. He abandoned his previous demands that he held for Sam/Sam and Joe, to take what he felt was the easier fight, and it absolved him of drawing a color line. It was a cherry pick gone wrong.

Historians and fans love to romanticize Johnson's prowess as a fighter, but they rarely include this level of context.

The terms Johnson required of the Australian promoter Hugh D McIntosh were in fact met,by McIntosh there were no last minute extras.The reason the fights did not happen is because Australian public opinion went against Johnson when he skipped bail. McIntosh made a public statement in the Aussie National press confirming this was the reason he abandoned attempts to promote the two title fights there and I posted it a while ago.
Your statement was as follows.

"The evidence is overwhelming that Johnson drew the color line and cherry picked his entire career."

The list of opponents he fought pre title I provided emphatically shows this is absolute nonsense!

Childs
Martin
Griffin
Klondyke
Langford
.Mcvey
Jeannette
.Everett
Black Bill
Joe Butler
Sandy Ferguson
Choynski
Stift
Gardner
Fitzsimmons
Armstrong
Kennedy
Armstrong
Munroe
Harris
Felix
Young Peter Jackson
Russell
Lang
Hart
Flynn
Jeffords

[Ivich]

It's not irrefutable. Johnson demanded a forfeit to be deposited in a U.S. bank for the proposed fights in Australia, that was a last minute demand that he knew would not be met. He insisted on outrageous side bets that he knew McVey, Langford or Jeannette didn't have the money to cover, but he never made those same demands of Battling Jim.

He did in fact cherry pick. I don't fault him for taking some of those fights for a big paycheck. Ketchel was good money for him, even though he was just a middle weight. Jeffries was good money too, despite coming off a 6-year retirement and having to lose 100 pounds. Johnson had to take advantage of those big paychecks when he could get them. But to say he fought Langford, McVey or Jeannette at their best is deceptive to say the least. To think that Kaufman, Ross or Murray were anything more than pushovers and easy pickings is delusional. We give credit to Johnson for beating Middleweights and fighters who were either too old or too young and inexperienced yet we don't make those allowances for any other fighter since. Fitzsimmons was washed up, Ferguson had no power despite his size, Young Peter Jackson was another small fighter at 5'6" who whose best weight was welterweight...would you credit Larry Holmes beating Ray Leonard as a great win? Mike Tyson beats Marvin Hagler...another great win?

Johnson didn't "get his financial fingers burned" fighting Battling Jim. He abandoned his previous demands that he held for Sam/Sam and Joe, to take what he felt was the easier fight, and it absolved him of drawing a color line. It was a cherry pick gone wrong.

Historians and fans love to romanticize Johnson's prowess as a fighter, but they rarely include this level of context.

Ferguson has wins over;
Klon***e
Jeannette
A 1 rd ko over Armstrong.
A draw with Ruhlin,

Jackson drew with Everett
Beat O Brien twice, once by stoppage .
And has a stoppage win over Langford.