Boxing fights hyped on Race and Nationality

[REDEEMER]

Not sure if it was racially charged but didn’t Bernard Hopkins say he would never lose to a white boy going into the Calzhage fight ?

[Anthony342]

Not sure if it was racially charged but didn’t Bernard Hopkins say he would never lose to a white boy going into the Calzhage fight ?

Guess he was wrong then. In his younger days, he probably doesn't. But then again, Calzaghe probably doesn't take the fight either.

[Willie Pep 229]

What's your point? Holmes was against apartheid no matter how much money was being thrown at him. To a normal thinking human being that is a commendable act. You dug up a 13 year old post to show us Larry had moral convictions? Good job!

In denying to fight Coetzee doesn't Holmes make Coetzee as much a political victim as Harry Wills?

You have stated several times that Dempsey had an obligation to fight Wills despite the prevailing political/social temperaments. Why doesn't that apply to Holmes fighting Coetzee? I doubt Coetzee ever personally oppressed anyone.

[JAB5239]

In denying to fight Coetzee doesn't Holmes make Coetzee as much a political victim as Harry Wills?

You have stated several times that Dempsey had an obligation to fight Wills despite the prevailing political/social temperaments. Why doesn't that apply to Holmes fighting Coetzee? I doubt Coetzee ever personally oppressed anyone.

It was never Coetzee Holmes refused to face. He just wasn't going to let apartheid South Africa profit from it. And why would he when he wouldn't be allowed to walk down many streets there If he were not fighting?

I'm sure in denying the fight Coetzee was unfairly seen the same way Max Schmeling was when he fought Joe Louis.

I don't believe Coetzee was racist. From what I've read he adopted a black son, so I doubt he oppressed anyone either.

I still believe Dempsey should have fought Wills. Harry was the number one contender for 6 years and the one being oppressed. And while there was certainly much racial tension, the fight COULD have been made with no I'll effects to Dempsey. He was either afraid to lose to Wills or caved to racist America. Coetzee for his part came here to fight Holmes only to have the fight fall apart.

And for the record.....I believe Dempsey would have beaten Wills. I just don't think any champion should be allowed to not fight a number one contender for that amount of time for ANY reason.

[Willie Pep 229]

It was never Coetzee Holmes refused to face. He just wasn't going to let apartheid South Africa profit from it. And why would he when he wouldn't be allowed to walk down many streets there If he were not fighting?

I'm sure in denying the fight Coetzee was unfairly seen the same way Max Schmeling was when he fought Joe Louis.

I don't believe Coetzee was racist. From what I've read he adopted a black son, so I doubt he oppressed anyone either.

I still believe Dempsey should have fought Wills. Harry was the number one contender for 6 years and the one being oppressed. And while there was certainly much racial tension, the fight COULD have been made with no I'll effects to Dempsey. He was either afraid to lose to Wills or caved to racist America. Coetzee for his part came here to fight Holmes only to have the fight fall apart.

And for the record.....I believe Dempsey would have beaten Wills. I just don't think any champion should be allowed to not fight a number one contender for that amount of time for ANY reason.

Sorry don't agree with your logic - the excuses you make for Holmes can be made for Dempsey.

How do you know Holmes would have fought Coetzee outside of SA?

How can you insure there would have been no ill effects to Dempsey?

As you probably noticed in my last post to Queen that I don't believe Holmes would have ducked anyone - let me add directly I think that his stand against aparthied was legit -- but I take issue with the double standard you have set for Dempsey.

IMHO your opinion is being shaped by your attitude towards the political issues on the table.

When you agreed, you sympathized; when you disagreed, you judged.

[JAB5239]

Sorry don't agree with your logic - the excuses you make for Holmes can be made for Dempsey.

How do you know Holmes would have fought Coetzee outside of SA?

How can you insure there would have been no ill effects to Dempsey?

As you probably noticed in my last post to Queen that I don't believe Holmes would have ducked anyone - let me add directly I think that his stand against aparthied was legit -- but I take issue with the double standard you have set for Dempsey.

IMHO your opinion is being shaped by your attitude towards the political issues on the table.

When you agreed, you sympathized; when you disagreed, you judged.

This is how I know Holmes would have fought Coetzee.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/16/s...ht-is-off.html

As far as Dempsey goes. Do you think it's acceptable to heed racist America and not give the longstanding number one contender a shot at the title? All the while giving lesser fighter, some he had already beaten, the shot that Wills had earned?

If Dempsey wasn't racist, and I'm not saying he was, he certainly caved to racist America or was afraid. I just don't see any other way to see it. And I don't think he was afraid.

[Willie Pep 229]

This is how I know Holmes would have fought Coetzee.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/16/s...ht-is-off.html

As far as Dempsey goes. Do you think it's acceptable to heed racist America and not give the longstanding number one contender a shot at the title? All the while giving lesser fighter, some he had already beaten, the shot that Wills had earned?

If Dempsey wasn't racist, and I'm not saying he was, he certainly caved to racist America or was afraid. I just don't see any other way to see it. And I don't think he was afraid.

Jab you posted the classic Dempsey-Wills 'couldn't find a venue' argument redux.

Caesars Palace/Vegas becomes Fenway Park/The Polo Grounds/Boyles Thirty Acers. - Same message, the money people are scared and the venue owners keep vacillating.

Once again we find that the only thing that ever really changes is the date.

P.S. Yea Holmes looked ready to take fight, you are correct.

[JAB5239]

Jab you posted the classic Dempsey-Wills 'couldn't find a venue' argument redux.

Caesars Palace/Vegas becomes Fenway Park/The Polo Grounds/Boyles Thirty Acers. - Same message, the money people are scared and the venue owners keep vacillating.

Once again we find that the only thing that ever really changes is the date.

P.S. Yea Holmes looked ready to take fight, you are correct.

I can see both sides. I lean the way I do because I believe they could have found another venue either in America or abroad. Just like Johnson could have fought Langford abroad where offers were flowing in. Dempsey was a great fighter, but his selections as champion baffle me. There were better fighters such as Wills than many he faced while Harry was rated number one. We can say it was because of race in America, but whites were fond of Wills and calling for the fight as well. Not all sure but I still believed it should have happened. Only New York as far as I remember didn't want the fight which is why it was called off and Wills paid 50k I believe. Like I said, I can see both sides, I just happen toean the way I do on this one.

[QueensburyRules]

It was never Coetzee Holmes refused to face. He just wasn't going to let apartheid South Africa profit from it. And why would he when he wouldn't be allowed to walk down many streets there If he were not fighting?

I'm sure in denying the fight Coetzee was unfairly seen the same way Max Schmeling was when he fought Joe Louis.

I don't believe Coetzee was racist. From what I've read he adopted a black son, so I doubt he oppressed anyone either.

I still believe Dempsey should have fought Wills. Harry was the number one contender for 6 years and the one being oppressed. And while there was certainly much racial tension, the fight COULD have been made with no I'll effects to Dempsey. He was either afraid to lose to Wills or caved to racist America. Coetzee for his part came here to fight Holmes only to have the fight fall apart.

And for the record.....I believe Dempsey would have beaten Wills. I just don't think any champion should be allowed to not fight a number one contender for that amount of time for ANY reason.

- - Prob being U pull beliefs from that empty space between U ears to serve up as fact.

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/T...yweight--1920s

Sorta puts all U beliefs into the Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Universe which is where we all knew U lived. Wills and Dempsey were actually quite advanced culturally in their day and well off thanks to boxing, and even today with boxing being legal for over 90 years, still big fights routinely can't be made, and Holmesy made a substantial career in the beginning ducking the host of WBA champs. This is proven fact, but alas...

U shoulda be born smarter, but alas...

[JAB5239]

- - Prob being U pull beliefs from that empty space between U ears to serve up as fact.

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/T...yweight--1920s

Sorta puts all U beliefs into the Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Universe which is where we all knew U lived. Wills and Dempsey were actually quite advanced culturally in their day and well off thanks to boxing, and even today with boxing being legal for over 90 years, still big fights routinely can't be made, and Holmesy made a substantial career in the beginning ducking the host of WBA champs. This is proven fact, but alas...

U shoulda be born smarter, but alas...

9 WBA champions from Ali up until Tyson with a grand total of 4 defenses. When exactly was Holmes supposed to face these guys and who of the "host" of WBA champs did he duck? Names and dates please. Links to support your claims if there are any as well. Thank you.