Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

[Benny Leonard]

Bingo! Johnson drew the "color line" as well but it seldom gets mentioned. Even in the early 1900s money dictated what fights got made and no one, includind Jack Johnson, believed there was any money in fighting black opponents back then. In the case of Dempsey I've read from multiple sources that Jack wanted a match with Wills but Tex Rickard torpedoed the idea. Rickard was the equivalent of what Don King has been over the past 30years: If he refused to promote a fight that fight did NOT happen.

Poet

I'll have to check the facts if I can find them, but Johnson fighting other blacks is different than a WHITE fighter facing a Black fighter.

How much did Jeffries vs. Johnson draw?


White vs. Black still seemed to be big. If it wasn't, Johnson would have made no money as HW Champion.

How much did Johnson, a "Black" fighter, make fighting white people as opposed to black fighters?

I'll have to look into it but by the pictures of Johnson prior to winning the White title, when he was a Black Champion, it says "White vs. Black" was good money.

I didn't see Johnson driving around in fancy cars and pimped out clothing when he was black champion...but I could be wrong.

[JAB5239]

True, Johnson didn't give black fighters a shot at his title but he did fight all the best prior to winning the title. He was the black HW Champion.

But that is no excuse not to give them a shot at the most coveted heavyweight championship if they were deserving.

I think he got tired of having to fight for low pay and knew by fighting white fighters he didn't have take a risk in losing or being put in a very tough fight to win...which might be the reason why the white fighters didn't face the black fighters. Johnson turned white in that regards, I guess.

White fighters didn't fight black fighters for the heavyweight championship at the time because it was socially unaccepted by the majority. Its true whites made better money fighting whites, as did Johnson, but Jack never gave a black man the same shot he had worked so hard to get, even after he had money.

The other thing is enjoyment: Johnson enjoyed being "Champion" and beating the crap out of white fighters. He enjoyed pissing off white people so to fight a black fighter; there wasn't the same enjoyment factor.

I disagree with this. Johnson grew up with white friends and had even more white friends as champion. Johnson simply wanted the most money he could make.

The money factor was also another reason. I could be wrong, but there seemed to be more money in fighting White fighters for Johnson than Black fighters. White people had more money.

Agreed.

But yes, I do agree that it is wrong and Johnson should have been above this and given anybody that was worthy/threat, a shot at his title.

As should have the white champions of that era. But, it was a different time and therefore acceptable to do things the way they were done.

[Benny Leonard]

As should have the white champions of that era. But, it was a different time and therefore acceptable to do things the way they were done.

Yes, but I think their resume isn't as good as Johnson's: Johnson fought greater quality fighters. His toughest fights came from fighting Black fighters. So you can say that the Black HW Title was the real title, the harder title.

One fight that Jeffries has over Johnson is the win over Joe Choynski. Joe knocked Johnson out, while Jeffries battled it out in a War with "The California Terror." Of course, this wasn't at Johnson's peak because after the loss, both Johnson and Joe were thrown into jail...and as the story goes, Joe told Jack that he was to athletically talented to be fighting the way he does so he instructed him on what to do...and the rest is history.

[JulioCesaChavez]

Apparently nothing you've been using..

Exactly! Cos I am teetotal. You got rose tinted glasses on son. The division may be filled with mediocrity now, but it was probably worse in the 50's. greatness is not struggling to beat a few flat footed old men. Some of the overrated fighters of balck and white days were good for their time, but I don't think all of the ones you mentioned could survive the 70s. Doesn't mean they are not legends, as I would say Dempsey and even Marciano are. But Marciano is the overrated one because some writers think he was the bess knees and p4p top ten. A bit of a joke really.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE]

I'll have to check the facts if I can find them, but Johnson fighting other blacks is different than a WHITE fighter facing a Black fighter.

I don't think so, my friend. Either way, other deserving black fighters were still forced to sit on the sidelines instead of getting their rightful shot.

How much did Jeffries vs. Johnson draw?

16,528.

White vs. Black still seemed to be big. If it wasn't, Johnson would have made no money as HW Champion.

The majority of people paying to see a Johnson fight were paying to see him lose.

How much did Johnson, a "Black" fighter, make fighting white people as opposed to black fighters?

That doesn't excuse the fact, my man. If it did it would be perfectly acceptable for whites to only fight whites if it made them more money.

I'll have to look into it but by the pictures of Johnson prior to winning the White title, when he was a Black Champion, it says "White vs. Black" was good money.

There was always money to be made if the best white fighters were taking on the best colored fighters. Unfortunetly there was more money to be made with the best white fighters taking on each other.

I didn't see Johnson driving around in fancy cars and pimped out clothing when he was black champion...but I could be wrong.

Johnson was always a "fancy dan". It was just the more money he made, the fancier he got.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE]

Yes, but I think their resume isn't as good as Johnson's: Johnson fought greater quality fighters. His toughest fights came from fighting Black fighters. So you can say that the Black HW Title was the real title, the harder title.

With all due respect my friend, Im interested in knowing how you've come to this conclussion? Johnson lost to the likes of Marvin Hart and Joe Choynski as well as drawin with Jack O'Brien who was outweighed by a good 40lbs. Many of the great black fighters Johnson faced he fought early in their careers. Langford is a prime example, and chased Johnson around looking for a rematch after solidifying himself as one of the best challengers to the title. One time only to be turned down at gunpoint by Johnson.

[joseph5620]

Corbett should have fought Peter Jackson, who John L. Sullivan avoided for years. They did meet for a 61 round draw before Corbett won the title, but he reneged on his promise to give Jackson a title shot.

Other than Sullivan, all were prepared to fight black fighters before they became champion; Jeffries and Corbett fought Jackson, Dempsey fought John Lester Johnson and employed a lot of black sparring partners.

Jeffries fought Jackson when Jackson only a shell of the fighter he once was. On top of that,Jackson had not fought in six years. I don't give Jeffries any credit for that.

[Benny Leonard]

=JAB5239;4276946

I don't think so, my friend. Either way, other deserving black fighters were still forced to sit on the sidelines instead of getting their rightful shot.

The point was MONEY. Black on Black doesn't make much money. Black vs. White still makes money.

Johnson paid his dues so to him, he felt justified in not going backwards, even though I think it was wrong.

How much did Jeffries vs. Johnson draw?

16,528.

Which shows there was Big interest. I was talking more about Money since a fight on the street corner can draw a crowd.

The majority of people paying to see a Johnson fight were paying to see him lose.

But they were paying. Ali had this same tactic that he got from the famous wrestler Gorgeous George. It didn't matter if they love you or hate you, as long as the asses are in the seats and the money is in your pocket, who cares.

That doesn't excuse the fact, my man. If it did it would be perfectly acceptable for whites to only fight whites if it made them more money.

Johnson paid his dues by facing the best black fighters of his time. He was the HW Black Champion...what were the rest?

And yes, it is still wrong, but not worse then totally avoiding the best. Johnson would just have more rematches with the same fighters he beat.

There was always money to be made if the best white fighters were taking on the best colored fighters. Unfortunetly there was more money to be made with the best white fighters taking on each other.

But Money was being Made. Whites could easily have fought the best black fighters and made big money.

It wasn't about the money...they were scared of a Black fighter beating a White fighter.

This is also why Black fighters after Johnson didn't get a title shot until Joe Louis.

Johnson was always a "fancy dan". It was just the more money he made, the fancier he got.

Yes, this is true, but the point was the difference in revenue he made fighting Black fighters vs. White fighters.

He made a decent living fighting Blacks, but when he fought Whites, he was a King.

You could even see it in his weight. He started to weigh more when he got more money...he filled out with a great build at his peak.

He was often starved early on. He was under 200 when he was fighting Black fighters, but when he was living well, he was over 200.

[JAB5239]

The point was MONEY. Black on Black doesn't make much money. Black vs. White still makes money.

Johnson paid his dues so to him, he felt justified in not going backwards, even though I think it was wrong.

But how is it backwards when you yourself said that these were his best challengers?

And yes, it is still wrong, but not worse then totally avoiding the best. Johnson would just have more rematches with the same fighters he beat.

But these were not the same fighters he beat. They were more seasoned and experienced. AND, if they really were better than his white challengers they were more deserving.

But Money was being Made. Whites could easily have fought the best black fighters and made big money.

Yes. and whites fighting whites made even more money.

It wasn't about the money...they were scared of a Black fighter beating a White fighter.

This has some truth to it as many considered blacks beneath them and couldn't stand the idea of one being champion. But....its always about money when you get down to brass tacs.

This is also why Black fighters after Johnson didn't get a title shot until Joe Louis.

Not because of physical fear, but because the fear that they b(whites) didn't have control.

Yes, this is true, but the point was the difference in revenue he made fighting Black fighters vs. White fighters.

He made a decent living fighting Blacks, but when he fought Whites, he was a King.

You could even see it in his weight. He started to weigh more when he got more money...he filled out with a great build at his peak.

He was often starved early on. He was under 200 when he was fighting Black fighters, but when he was living well, he was over 200.

This to me doesn't give him an excuse for doing the same thing to black fighter as was done to him for so long by white fighters. Johnson was a great man. But he was selfish i9n that regard.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'll have to check the facts if I can find them, but Johnson fighting other blacks is different than a WHITE fighter facing a Black fighter.

How much did Jeffries vs. Johnson draw?


White vs. Black still seemed to be big. If it wasn't, Johnson would have made no money as HW Champion.

How much did Johnson, a "Black" fighter, make fighting white people as opposed to black fighters?

I'll have to look into it but by the pictures of Johnson prior to winning the White title, when he was a Black Champion, it says "White vs. Black" was good money.

I didn't see Johnson driving around in fancy cars and pimped out clothing when he was black champion...but I could be wrong.

The difference is in who's holding the belt. There wasn't a truck load of money for a white where a black fighter challenges a white champion. A black champion meeting a white challenger is a different matter altogether.

Poet