Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

[JAB5239]

Corbett should have fought Peter Jackson, who John L. Sullivan avoided for years. They did meet for a 61 round draw before Corbett won the title, but he reneged on his promise to give Jackson a title shot.

Other than Sullivan, all were prepared to fight black fighters before they became champion; Jeffries and Corbett fought Jackson, Dempsey fought John Lester Johnson and employed a lot of black sparring partners.

Dempsey had also twice signed to fight Harry Wills only to have the fight cancelled by (I believe) the govenor of New York.

Gene Tunney also challenged Wills only to be turned down. My guess is Wills had been waiting for a title shot and wasn't willing to chance his #1 ranking by facing Tunney at THAT point.

Are my fact on point Kid McCoy?

[Kid McCoy]

Thanks for the info on Corbett.

Sullivan fought black fighters prior to winning the title?

He did avoid them when he held the title...that's a knock on his character and resume.

Same goes for Jeffries. I did hear that he fought Black fighters prior to winning the title and wanted to fight Jack Johnson when he held the title, but caved into the outside pressures to not give a black-man a shot.

Dempsey may be in the same with the rest since he caved as well when he was Champion. Sparring black HWs isn't the same as giving them a shot at your title.

No Sullivan refused point blank to fight blacks, but all the others did on their way up.

To be fair to Dempsey, he was prepared to meet Wills and actually signed to fight him twice, but the politics of the day prevented it. Tex Rickard, who had promoted Johnson-Jeffries, was not prepared to risk a repeat of the country-wide race riots which followed that fight, and without him the fight couldn't happen.

[JAB5239]

Thanks for the info on Corbett.

Sullivan fought black fighters prior to winning the title?

He did avoid them when he held the title...that's a knock on his character and resume.

Same goes for Jeffries. I did hear that he fought Black fighters prior to winning the title and wanted to fight Jack Johnson when he held the title, but caved into the outside pressures to not give a black-man a shot.

Dempsey may be in the same with the rest since he caved as well when he was Champion. Sparring black HWs isn't the same as giving them a shot at your title.

While I don't agree with the practice of not giving deserving black contenders a shot at the title, I think it was more a sign of the times than a sign of the men in most cases. Jack Johnson never gave a colored fighter a title shot either. What should we think of him. Of course the circumstances are different, but the fact remains.

[Kid McCoy]

Dempsey had also twice signed to fight Harry Wills only to have the fight cancelled by (I believe) the govenor of New York.

Gene Tunney also challenged Wills only to be turned down. My guess is Wills had been waiting for a title shot and wasn't willing to chance his #1 ranking by facing Tunney at THAT point.

Are my fact on point Kid McCoy?

Yes you're right. New York ordered Dempsey to meet Wills, but wouldn't let it take place on their territory, for fear of more race riots.

Having already established himself as the #1 contender, Wills didn't want to risk that in an elimination tournament. Tunney saw beating Wills as a chance to solidify his chances of fighting Dempsey. By the time of the Tunney challenge Wills was on the slide anyway, and got beaten by Sharkey and Uzcudun around that time, which pretty much put him out of contention.

On Marciano vs La Starza. Yes, by all accounts Rocky did get a gift, but then so did a lot of the champs...Ali vs Norton and Young, Holmes vs Witherspoon and Carl Williams, Lewis vs Mercer, Louis vs Walcott. He did KO LaStarza in the rematch, though.

[StarshipTrooper]

Yes you're right. New York ordered Dempsey to meet Wills, but wouldn't let it take place on their territory, for fear of more race riots.

On Marciano vs La Starza. Yes, by all accounts Rocky did get a gift, but then so did a lot of the champs...Ali vs Norton and Young, Holmes vs Witherspoon and Carl Williams, Lewis vs Mercer, Louis vs Walcott. He did KO LaStarza in the rematch, though.

A lot of observers thought Marciano's first fight with Ezzard Charles could have gone either way. That being said, in both the LaStarza and Charles rematches Rocky left no doubt.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

While I don't agree with the practice of not giving deserving black contenders a shot at the title, I think it was more a sign of the times than a sign of the men in most cases. Jack Johnson never gave a colored fighter a title shot either. What should we think of him. Of course the circumstances are different, but the fact remains.

Bingo! Johnson drew the "color line" as well but it seldom gets mentioned. Even in the early 1900s money dictated what fights got made and no one, includind Jack Johnson, believed there was any money in fighting black opponents back then. In the case of Dempsey I've read from multiple sources that Jack wanted a match with Wills but Tex Rickard torpedoed the idea. Rickard was the equivalent of what Don King has been over the past 30years: If he refused to promote a fight that fight did NOT happen.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

No Sullivan refused point blank to fight blacks, but all the others did on their way up.

To be fair to Dempsey, he was prepared to meet Wills and actually signed to fight him twice, but the politics of the day prevented it. Tex Rickard, who had promoted Johnson-Jeffries, was not prepared to risk a repeat of the country-wide race riots which followed that fight, and without him the fight couldn't happen.

You beat me to the point LOL!

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree.

You're an idiot. You're an idiot. You're an idiot. You're an idiot.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Marciano was a great fighter. He defeated Charles and Walcott twice and would have knocked out Patterson if they had fought. Liston was yet a contender and no one else in the heavyweight division was a threat. He fought who was available and ducked no one. Marciano deserves his due. He wasn's as good as Ali, Louis and Johnson, but he was great nonethless

Exactly!

Poet

[Benny Leonard]

While I don't agree with the practice of not giving deserving black contenders a shot at the title, I think it was more a sign of the times than a sign of the men in most cases. Jack Johnson never gave a colored fighter a title shot either. What should we think of him. Of course the circumstances are different, but the fact remains.

True, Johnson didn't give black fighters a shot at his title but he did fight all the best prior to winning the title. He was the black HW Champion.

I think he got tired of having to fight for low pay and knew by fighting white fighters he didn't have take a risk in losing or being put in a very tough fight to win...which might be the reason why the white fighters didn't face the black fighters. Johnson turned white in that regards, I guess.

The other thing is enjoyment: Johnson enjoyed being "Champion" and beating the crap out of white fighters. He enjoyed pissing off white people so to fight a black fighter; there wasn't the same enjoyment factor.

The money factor was also another reason. I could be wrong, but there seemed to be more money in fighting White fighters for Johnson than Black fighters. White people had more money.

But yes, I do agree that it is wrong and Johnson should have been above this and given anybody that was worthy/threat, a shot at his title.