Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

[StarshipTrooper]

Exactly! Cos I am teetotal. You got rose tinted glasses on son. The division may be filled with mediocrity now, but it was probably worse in the 50's. greatness is not struggling to beat a few flat footed old men. Some of the overrated fighters of balck and white days were good for their time, but I don't think all of the ones you mentioned could survive the 70s. Doesn't mean they are not legends, as I would say Dempsey and even Marciano are. But Marciano is the overrated one because some writers think he was the bess knees and p4p top ten. A bit of a joke really.

JulioCesaChavez (who doesn't know how to spell "Cesar") is Rafael Benitez's newest alt.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

This to me doesn't give him an excuse for doing the same thing to black fighter as was done to him for so long by white fighters. Johnson was a great man. But he was selfish i9n that regard.

You need to understand something about Johnson: He wasn't out for uplifting blacks. Jack Johnson was out for Jack Johnson. A lot of blacks in America knew it too. Johnson was disliked by many in the black communtity for it as well as the fact that they felt his antics set their own progress back by 50 years. Jack Blackburn, who was a contemporary of Johnson's in the ring and would later become Joe Louis' trainer, detested Johnson for those reasons.

Poet

[JAB5239]

You need to understand something about Johnson: He wasn't out for uplifting blacks. Jack Johnson was out for Jack Johnson. A lot of blacks in America knew it too. Johnson was disliked by many in the black communtity for it as well as the fact that they felt his antics set their own progress back by 50 years. Jack Blackburn, who was a contemporary of Johnson's in the ring and would later become Joe Louis' trainer, detested Johnson for those reasons.

Poet

I hear you Poet, but it isn't an excuse as far as Im concerned to not give other colored fighters the same shot as he was afforded. If it was wrong (and it was) of white fighters to deny blacks a chance at the heavyweight title, it is equally or more wrong for Johnson to have done it.

[Jim Jeffries]

Jeffries fought Jackson when Jackson only a shell of the fighter he once was. On top of that,Jackson had not fought in six years. I don't give Jeffries any credit for that.

I wouldn't expect you to give a white fighter credit for anything, ever. But I imagine you give Johnson credit for beating Jeffries, even though Jim hadn't fought in six years .

Jeffries had only had a total of 7 pro fights when he faced Jackson (46-1-3,) so even if Jackson did have a 5 year layoff, Jim probably should get some credit.

[The Jackal]

I hear you Poet, but it isn't an excuse as far as Im concerned to not give other colored fighters the same shot as he was afforded. If it was wrong (and it was) of white fighters to deny blacks a chance at the heavyweight title, it is equally or more wrong for Johnson to have done it.

Ive heard that Johnson wanted to be a part of Joe Louis's team but Blackburn wouldn't have it then Johnson turn to Schmeling pointing out the defencive flaw when Louis threw punches & Schmeling studied footage of Louis & it worked.
Why wasn't Sam Langford given a shot?

[joseph5620]

I wouldn't expect you to give a white fighter credit for anything, ever. But I imagine you give Johnson credit for beating Jeffries, even though Jim hadn't fought in six years .

Jeffries had only had a total of 7 pro fights when he faced Jackson (46-1-3,) so even if Jackson did have a 5 year layoff, Jim probably should get some credit.

This is coming from a guy who can't fathom how Barack ***** graduated with honors. You think it was all a lie and that black man can't possibly be that smart. You and your buddy PBDS(who called another poster a "coon") are two of the biggest right wing bigots on the boards and the proof is in all of your post.To answer your accusation,I have never considered Johnson's win over Jeffries as a great win, knowing that Jeffries was well past his prime. You, on the other hand, are too slow, dumb, and bigoted to realize that Jeffries fought an old, inactive and sick fighter in Peter Jackson who died just three years after that fight. Jeffries deserves NO credit other than he did what any other fighter is supposed to do with a hand picked opponent. After this election you'll probably take the gun you're directing at me and point it at your own head. I sure won't shed any tears for you.

After 1892 Peter Jackson was unable to obtain fights. Past his prime, he was debilitated by fast living and probably even then tubercular. He taught boxing, worked as a publican, toured as an actor in Uncle Tom's Cabin and boxed exhibitions. In March 1898 he was sacrificed to Jim Jeffries, who flattened him in three rounds, and next year suffered the third of his losses in thirty-seven fights at the hands of a fourth-rater at Vancouver. Money was raised to send him to Australia, where he toured with Fitzgerald's circus but he was too ill to box. After several benefits he was sent to Queensland where he died of tuberculosis at Roma on 13 July 1901. He was buried with Anglican rites and pomp in Toowong cemetery. A magnificent tomb was later erected by subscription with the words, 'This was a man'.

[JAB5239]

Ive heard that Johnson wanted to be a part of Joe Louis's team but Blackburn wouldn't have it then Johnson turn to Schmeling pointing out the defencive flaw when Louis threw punches & Schmeling studied footage of Louis & it worked.
Why wasn't Sam Langford given a shot?

If I remember correctly Johnson wanted to train or help train Louis only to be rebuffed. After that he started throwing Joe "under the train" so to speak and telling anyone who would listen that Joe could have never beaten him in his prime.

As far as the Langord thing goes.....I can't say for sure why the fight never happened. My own feeling are that he was scared to lose his title to another black man who was much improved and bigger since their first meeting. Of course I have no proof of that, its just an assumption based on the things I've read.

I do know that Langford challenged Johnson on many occasions including face to face in a Boston tavern. When Johnson again refused sam challenged him to a fight in the basement at which time Johnson pulled out his pistol. That information I took from the book "Unforgivable blackness". If you get a chance, read it. Its long, but very detailed and a pretty good read.

[Jim Jeffries]

This is coming from a guy who can't fathom how Barack ***** graduated with honors. You think it was all a lie and that black man can't possibly be that smart. You and your buddy PBDS(who called another poster a "coon") are two of the biggest right wing bigots on the boards and the proof is in all of your post.To answer your accusation,I have never considered Johnson's win over Jeffries as a great win, knowing that Jeffries was well past his prime. You, on the other hand, are too slow, dumb, and bigoted to realize that Jeffries fought an old, inactive and sick fighter in Peter Jackson who died just three years after that fight. Jeffries deserves NO credit other than he did what any other fighter is supposed to do with a hand picked opponent. After this election you'll probably take the gun you're directing at me and point it at your own head. I sure won't shed any tears for you.

Hey genius, I'm not sure what ***** has to do with this thread, but since you brought him up. I never doubted *****'s ability to graduate with anything, what I questioned is why all of his school papers, his thesis, records, everything, is so secretly guarded. Hell even his medical records are a mystery, he only released a single page. Everything surrounding this clown and his shady past have been kept from the public. BTW are you one of those Black Panthers that have been keeping whites away from the voting booths? Just curious.

As for Jackson, he was still a pretty good test for a guy with 7 fights, no matter how you spin it. Why am I not surprised to see you in another thread, doing your best to discredit another great white fighter? You must be the most blissful person on earth (you know with ignorance being bliss and all.)

Marciano was certainly an ATG, and for someone to accomplish what he did, being 5'9" and 185 lbs, with a 68 in reach, is amazing. He's not on the level of say, an Ali or Joe Louis, but no one ever said he was.

[Yogi]

As for Jackson, he was still a pretty good test for a guy with 7 fights, no matter how you spin it.

Here's the "spin" out of San Francisco (the fight's location) as per the San Francisco Call, Mar 23rd, 1898, and some of the things they wrote in their writeup;

"Poor old Pete was put to rest by Jeffries, the powerful young heavyweight from Southern California, shortly after commencement of the third round."

"It was virtually a walkover for Jeffries, who found little or no difficulty in hitting Jackson when and where he pleased. The colored man was physically unable to resist attack or give punishment."

"The Olympic Club did not act wisely--that is, according to the opinions of the best judges of pugilism and pugilists--when it matched Jackson against a man who handicapped him in every particular excepting possibly in science."

"It is a well known fact that Jackson was a physical and financial wreck when he arrived in this city from England and during the past year of his life he was continually in a maudlin state, the result of his love for strong liquer."

"But the Olympic Club did not take into consideration when it matched Jackson to fight Jeffries that it was possibly taking a life in its hands."

"The directors must have looked at the match from a pecuniary point of view, otherwise they, as supposed judges of athletic form, would certainly have informed Jackson when he asked a fight that the club could not risk its reputation by matching a big and powerful man like Jeffries against an opponent who had wrecked by dissipation a consitution which had been several years ago physically sound."

"The club can in a measure congratulate itself that Jeffries did not kil Jackson with a punch."

Etc., etc., etc...Including them being very, very critical of the doctor who passed Jackson through and calling him "sadly wanting" in ways of judging a man's physical condition, and even questioned if the doctor (a Dr. Parent) had bothered to conduct an examination of Jackson at all.

All through the whole report on the fight, the underlining theme was almost entirely focused Jackson's inept physical conditioning and voicing their criticism on how the boxing club should not have allowed Jackson to go through with the fight...Jeffries getting credit, even a little bit, is really no where to be found, besides them stating that he won a fight and did what he was supposed to do against against an opponent that had no business being in the ring with him even if he had only a limited number of fights at that point. Wait, they did give Jeffries a little credit, I guess, but only because he appeared to have let up on Jackson and show mercy once he saw Jackson stood absolutely no chance to win the fight.

[StarshipTrooper]

I hear you Poet, but it isn't an excuse as far as Im concerned to not give other colored fighters the same shot as he was afforded. If it was wrong (and it was) of white fighters to deny blacks a chance at the heavyweight title, it is equally or more wrong for Johnson to have done it.

Oh I agree with you. I certainly don't condone it in either Johnson or any of the white champions I'm simply pointing out that it is what it is. Really the only time I get my hackles up is when people say Dempsey personally wouldn't fight Wills which was patently untrue.

Poet