Ray Leonard overrated

[QueensburyRules]

Seriously, how can people consider him the best of the fab 4? Duran can be considered better on longevity alone, let alone the fact that Duran had some huge wins, and beat peak Leonard pretty easily (despite Duran being 12 pounds above his best weight).

Hearns outboxed Leonard for 10 of 14 rounds in their first fight. Too bad Tommy took a punch like a spider's web. The first time Leonard tapped him, Hearns was staggering all over the place. Hearns was a far better boxer, and was robbed in the rematch.

The Hagler decision is still debated today. We know what would have happened if a peak Hagler faced Leonard.

- -Deja vu all over again...the late, great Yogi Berra...

[QueensburyRules]

It took a novel to get your point across eh?
Anyway, I don't believe your my dad so they're isn't going to be any sons around here understand? To address your statement you make a valid point. Do me a favor and re-read the original post. I did not say Ray didn't fight the best, nor did I knock any of achievements. I stated that Ray, to me, will always be less than he could of for not fighting Pryor and having a rematch with Hagler. POINT BLANK. Is it my opinion that Ray was scared of Pryor, YES, I believe he didn't want any part of him because he saw something in him. I'm not a Pryor nuthugger by any degree, if its the case, you wrote a novel defending Ray Leonard, looks like you have more invested in the nuthugging department eh? Pryor wasn't a defensive fighter at all. He blocked punches with his head. The punches, however, didn't affect him. Look at his knockdowns since you have so much to go back on. The man got knocked down and literally JUMPED back up. He couldn't be hurt. So what Ray beat him up in sparring. I bet Pryor kept on coming back for more and more. Thats why I believe he was the best. You said it right he would have been an all time great if he just had the opportunity and had he stayed clear of drugs. I'm just calling it like I see it. Any more discussion needed?/

- -Apparently so!

[QueensburyRules]

** Stats are nice Henry, and it is impressive the vast array of stats that you have come up with on this forum. As I recall, many you have provided seem to be the product of your own research and obviously took some time to compile.

However, there are stats, and there are stats. It seems you penalize career longevity heavily if I read your conclusions properly, Basilio and and Napoles lasting twice as long as Leonard.

Just like using title fights as a main marker of greatness, when so many fighters are frozen out of title fights for much of their careers, or even all their careers, yet titles being a dime a dozen today. How great would Charles be ranked if he never fought for the heavyweight title, yet had the same exact record?

Most modern historians would rank Ray ahead of Jeffries in compiling a greatest fighter list. Jeffries career lasted half as long as that of Ray, and 45% was against HOFers at or near their best, save Jackson. All those HOF bouts came in Jeffries last 15 fights, a 60% ratio. Oddly enough, plug in title fights for HOF and the exact 45% for career remains. How many fighters have and close out their careers like that? I doubt you can find any fighter who comes close to those records, but does that make Jeffries the best?

What we knew about ancient mid and South American native cultures was published extensively over the past century, but it turns out that the picture of the cultures the archeologists put together has mostly been turned upside down by recent, more comprehensive excavations.

Seems those early archeologists restricted their research to what could be found next to major roads in the region. Modern aerial mapping and excavation techniques have greatly expanded our understanding, but even so it just represents a limited point of view.

We cannot even begin to fully describe and understand all the myriad of permutations of modern American culture, much less that of the world. Yet every year new books come out by historians claiming to do just that at one level or another.

Boxing is a great deal more simplified than all that, but even so, it's still an immense undertaking, something like 300,000+ fighters in Boxrec, most of whom very little is known. Consequently, the focus tends to be on those more widely covered fighters. Still, there is no wide consensus on what actually occurred in the first Flynn/Dempsey fight, much less the Liston/Ali rematch, reasonably well covered events in their day and relatively modern history in comparison.

Ray is one of the best, without question. Ranking him becomes an exercise in how many great fighters can you rank on the head of a pin. I dare say it's fairly easy to rank a few, but any more than that it becomes a swearing match, with many claiming me, me, I've got the most and best fighters ranked on a pinhead plus a spreadsheet.

I reckon these lists makes Burt Sugar a little walking around money when he comes out with his new published list, and I doubt he even has a spreadsheet.

Well, your spreadsheets are greatly welcomed, and it's very interesting to contemplate your passion that led you to go to that much trouble. Might be worth a comprehensive compiling of all your spreadsheets in a publication with your own rankings in your own story. A touch of honey to flavor all that sugar might be tasty.

- -Ah, me'n Henry arm rasslin', the good ol days.

[The plunger man]

Leonard beat arguably the best lightweight of all time.
Leonard beat arguably the best welterweight of all time.
Leonard beat arguably the best middleweight of all time.
Won five world titles in different weights and beat 3 fighters who all rank in the top 10 welterweights of all time.
Also came back after 3 year retirement to defeat marvellous Marvin hagler.
I think that answers your question lol

[The plunger man]

It took a novel to get your point across eh?
Anyway, I don't believe your my dad so they're isn't going to be any sons around here understand? To address your statement you make a valid point. Do me a favor and re-read the original post. I did not say Ray didn't fight the best, nor did I knock any of achievements. I stated that Ray, to me, will always be less than he could of for not fighting Pryor and having a rematch with Hagler. POINT BLANK. Is it my opinion that Ray was scared of Pryor, YES, I believe he didn't want any part of him because he saw something in him. I'm not a Pryor nuthugger by any degree, if its the case, you wrote a novel defending Ray Leonard, looks like you have more invested in the nuthugging department eh? Pryor wasn't a defensive fighter at all. He blocked punches with his head. The punches, however, didn't affect him. Look at his knockdowns since you have so much to go back on. The man got knocked down and literally JUMPED back up. He couldn't be hurt. So what Ray beat him up in sparring. I bet Pryor kept on coming back for more and more. Thats why I believe he was the best. You said it right he would have been an all time great if he just had the opportunity and had he stayed clear of drugs. I'm just calling it like I see it. Any more discussion needed?/

Pryor Was offered a million dollars to fight Leonard and Pryor turned it down....asking for more money so know your history.
Leonard would have knocked Pryor back down to the jnr welters as would have hearns and Duran

[QueensburyRules]

Pryor Was offered a million dollars to fight Leonard and Pryor turned it down....asking for more money so know your history.
Leonard would have knocked Pryor back down to the jnr welters as would have hearns and Duran

- -U plumber history ain't boxing history.

When Ray found out Aaron was in the middle of a promoter civil suit over his sevices, he put out the offer knowing legally Aaron couldn't fight anyone.

I personally know this window of when the fight could be made, so it wouldn't be a big deal, but for...

Ray invited the media to an exclusive luncheon he put on, not quite a black tie affair. Marv and Aaron included, so the assumption was he would announce the timeline for those fights. Instead he looks at them to say he can't fight them because he was retiring as the whole room groaned.

Lousy PR work by Ray. Eventually he came back to fight Marv now running on fumes.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -U plumber history ain't boxing history.

When Ray found out Aaron was in the middle of a promoter civil suit over his sevices, he put out the offer knowing legally Aaron couldn't fight anyone.

I personally know this window of when the fight could be made, so it wouldn't be a big deal, but for...

Ray invited the media to an exclusive luncheon he put on, not quite a black tie affair. Marv and Aaron included, so the assumption was he would announce the timeline for those fights. Instead he looks at them to say he can't fight them because he was retiring as the whole room groaned.

Lousy PR work by Ray. Eventually he came back to fight Marv now running on fumes.

Pryor didn't mention that when he openly admitted turning down Rays offer. There's a 47 second video of Pryor on YouTube saying that he turned it down because he "wanted more money since he had a title". I believe you're getting the situations confused. Pryor was having contract issues with Buddy La Rosa, which is why his fight with DURAN never materialized around 81, not Leonard. Also think about it, Leonard was retired at the time Pryor fought Arguello that first time and made a good name for himself. What made Pryor feel like he should've got close to even $$$?

As for Ray ducking him lol how and why? Why would he duck Pryor when he not only faced but beat everyone else in the fab 4? Yet he's scared of a JWW that didn't even fight at the welter division in his career till he (Pryor) was shot.

[QueensburyRules]

Pryor didn't mention that when he openly admitted turning down Rays offer. There's a 47 second video of Pryor on YouTube saying that he turned it down because he "wanted more money since he had a title". I believe you're getting the situations confused. Pryor was having contract issues with Buddy La Rosa, which is why his fight with DURAN never materialized around 81, not Leonard. Also think about it, Leonard was retired at the time Pryor fought Arguello that first time and made a good name for himself. What made Pryor feel like he should've got close to even $$$?

As for Ray ducking him lol how and why? Why would he duck Pryor when he not only faced but beat everyone else in the fab 4? Yet he's scared of a JWW that didn't even fight at the welter division in his career till he (Pryor) was shot.

- -Never made a big deal over the ducking because the mercurial Pryor had promoter and drug issues that Ray knew about.

The window for the fight is small, but 1- Aaron was giving interviews at Rays fights wanting it. 2- Aaron whupped AMA Tommy that was legendary even then. 3 Aaron moved from 135 to 140 the BTFO the great Cervantes for his division debut.

I would add Aaron has a better career and title record than Ray and KOed every HOFer he ever stepped into the ring against and Ray being of scavenger stock knew it!

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -Never made a big deal over the ducking because the mercurial Pryor had promoter and drug issues that Ray knew about.

The window for the fight is small, but 1- Aaron was giving interviews at Rays fights wanting it. 2- Aaron whupped AMA Tommy that was legendary even then. 3 Aaron moved from 135 to 140 the BTFO the great Cervantes for his division debut.

I would add Aaron has a better career and title record than Ray and KOed every HOFer he ever stepped into the ring against and Ray being of scavenger stock knew it!

Pryor whooped a 17 year old Hearns that didn't pack a punch till he was an adult, plus that fight was at 132 LBS. Hearns was not only a crude teen at that time but he was no where near as polished as he was in the pros. He gave up his height constantly and didn't punch nearly as hard as the "hitman" version, which makes all the difference. When a pressure fighter doesn't see his opponent as a power threat, he can bum rush him at any moment because of the lack of danger. I doubt that happens vs the Cuevas version of Hearns for example, that was a one punch KO artist.

Also, Pryor beat Cervantes but while he was still formidable, was definitely past his prime and even decked Pryor early on. I hate to say things like this because I'm a Pryor fan as well. But lets not act like Arguello wasn't stepping up to Pryors division and wasn't blown up in weight. Leonard beat greats that were either his size or bigger (even the smaller ones were at least solidified in the division or his age), which is why we shouldn't get too carried away with just names on paper. That's like looking at Marciano's record and automatically assuming that that Louis, Walcott, Moore and Charles were in their prime and the same size which they definitely weren't.

[JAB5239]

- -Never made a big deal over the ducking because the mercurial Pryor had promoter and drug issues that Ray knew about.

The window for the fight is small, but 1- Aaron was giving interviews at Rays fights wanting it. 2- Aaron whupped AMA Tommy that was legendary even then. 3 Aaron moved from 135 to 140 the BTFO the great Cervantes for his division debut.

I would add Aaron has a better career and title record than Ray and KOed every HOFer he ever stepped into the ring against and Ray being of scavenger stock knew it!

Really? Greb was giving interviews trying to get Dempsey in the ring. And Leonard wasn't fighting Pryor's leftovers like Dempsey was Greb's. Man, you double standards and hypocrisy are amazing!!