Ray Leonard overrated

[wmute]

Ur right. But i think 50% of most fights would be different second time around. Maybe every fight should be a best out of 5 series, to know exactly who is better. I think the great thing about the first match up is that pyschological battle. As in Leonard trying to outfight Duran or Chavez amazing comeback against Taylor.Its the unpredictable element that creates so much excitment.

That's exectly my point Robinson (and others like Greb or Armstrong) had 2,3 or more fights with most of his tough opponents, and that what puts him on a different level: we KNOW by facts that no matter what was going in that single fight, he was the better man.

Because of the reasons I mentioned in the other posts about Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Leonard is more susceptible than others to that critique.

Watch the fight. SRL has Hearns in real trouble at the end of the 6th and 7th where Hearns has trouble wlaking back to his corner. If he had hurt him earlier in the round he could have finished him.
I also had the rematch extremely close. I dont beleive it was a gift.

Look, maybe I misspelled my argument: I am not taking away anything from Leonard's victory, I was just pointing out how there were PLENTY of reasons to think a rematch could have been very different... 12 rounds... higherweight class...

As for the rematch, I think you are bordering on nuthugging here considering Leonard himself said he thought Hearns was robbed...

All i know is both fighters agreed to the conditions before the fight, and whether or not the fighters look dead at the end Leonard out scored, out moved and out boxed a slow plodding Hagler. Thats clear to me.

I dont know how you scored it, but I have it 7-5 Leonard with close rounds, that's hardly clear.
Throw in the fact that in a rematch there might not have been in that ring, with those gloves and Hagler might have got sensible advice from the corner instead of throwing away the first four rounds chasing Leonard from an orthodox stance (LMAO at the idea). Again Leonard fought a great fight that night, still there were plenty of things that would have been most likely different in a rematch.

Hagler had nothing left. He was fighting once a year and Leonard came out of retirement a year after fighting Hagler. But yea, Leonard ducked him. And rightly so.

What do you mean by "rightly so"?

Mayweather and his critics is a whole other topic.

I agree up to a point, when Leonard is pointed out as the measuring stick for a warrior who took on all challenges, I feel like dispelling the myth.

[SonnyG8R]

Leonard should have a dent for his comebacks against Norris and in particular against Camacho, the only difference from Duran and Robinson is that he got payed a lot to look like ****.

Agreed. Leonard had 2 ill advised fights. 3 if you count the second hearns fight that he clearly lost and even admitted to, despite being given the draw. I wish he would have retired after the Lelonde fight, but I understand that it is sometimes hard for boxers to accept that it's time to hang up the gloves. Heck I wish Ali would have retired after the Shavers fight or at least after the second Spinks fight. But Duran and Robinson didn't hang around a couple fights too long like most. In Durans case you could argue that he hung around 19 full years too long. Between 1968 and November 1980 Duran only lost 1 fight. At that point he was already a first ballot hof'er and the greatest lightweight ever. Then he lost the rematch to Leonard and went on to loss 15 fights in the next 20 years. And in that time he only had 2 bright points - a close loss to Hagler and a stunning defeat of Barkley. Meanwhile he was lossing to the likes of Kirkland Laing, Robbie Simms, Pat Lawler, Vinnie Paz twice, Over the hill Camacho twice, Castro, William Joppy, and Omar Eduardo Gonzalez. Same deal with Robinson. The 1 loss to LaMotta between 1940 and 1951, then 18 losses between 51 and 1965.

So yeah when you stick around a year or two too long and suffer an embarressing loss or 2 it is kind of a sad sight to see. But when you hang around for 15-20 years past your prime it is just pathetic and you definitely put a dent in your legacy.

And it's not just boxing. I remember watching the Great Willie Mays stumbling around in the Mets outfield near the close of his carreer. It was a sad sight. Likewise watching Michael Jordan with the Wizards. He wasn't terrible, but he was but a shadow of his former Airness.

[StarshipTrooper]

I never made the argument that you put in my mouth.

My complaint is that Leonard never gave the rematches he should have given, and I pointed out how a rematch with Hearns at 154 in a 12 rounds fight, would have been VERY different, since Hearns was winning on all cards by round 12 and he would not have been as dehydrated at 154.

YOU on the other hand stated that Hearns built a lead ONLY because Leonard took 7 rounds to adapt to the new pace of the fight, which is simply RIDICULOUS since Leonard is one of the smartest fighters to set foot in a ring and since no one ever outboxed Hearns.

Well, considering that at the time championship fights were 15 rounds it's more than a little silly to ***** about the fact that it wasn't 12. That's like complaining that "if only Hagler - Hearns was schedualed for 1 Hearns woulda won dammit". You're always going to want the fight to end one or two rounds before the fighter you're nuthugging gets knocked the f*** out.

You seem to be hung up on rematches. Hagler never gave Hearns a re-match either. Hearns never gave one to Duran. Money determines rematches in the modern era and NOTHING else. There's no money in rematches where the loser of the first fight gets knocked out; and that's exactly what happened in ALL the previously mentioned fights. This isn't the old days when fighters fought each other 5 or 6 times.

Basically what it comes down to with you is you're a rabid Hearns fan trying to justify your hero's losses. If only this, if only that. Yeah, and wishes were horses beggers would ride. The only "what if" scenario you should be wishing for is for your HERO to have had something OTHER than a glass jaw.

Poet

[SonnyG8R]

Leonard fought the best of his era. he may not have given them all timely rematches, but I guess it is a matter of opinion how big of a deal that is. Still he fought all the greats of his era and beat them all. What else does a guy have to do to earn a little respect?

[wmute]

Well, considering that at the time championship fights were 15 rounds it's more than a little silly to ***** about the fact that it wasn't 12. That's like complaining that "if only Hagler - Hearns was schedualed for 1 Hearns woulda won dammit". You're always going to want the fight to end one or two rounds before the fighter you're nuthugging gets knocked the f*** out.

Can you even read what I typed? I said a rematch would have been due, not that Leonard should have won. (Leonard btw made sure he was fighting a 12 rounder with Hagler, when 15 rounds was still an option) A rematch could habe been at 12 rounds as both options were available in the mid 80s.

You seem to be hung up on rematches. Hagler never gave Hearns a re-match either. Hearns never gave one to Duran. Money determines rematches in the modern era and NOTHING else. There's no money in rematches where the loser of the first fight gets knocked out; and that's exactly what happened in ALL the previously mentioned fights. This isn't the old days when fighters fought each other 5 or 6 times.

LOOOOOL
Hearns KO2 Duran , Duran never wanted no rematch.
Hagler KO3, Hearns fights TWO more fights and retires.

compare to Leonard's "KOs" and his career going on for years, laugh at yourself....

you are like one of the Mayweather fanboys, only the Sugar Ray Leonard version

Basically what it comes down to with you is you're a rabid Hearns fan trying to justify your hero's losses. If only this, if only that. Yeah, and wishes were horses beggers would ride. The only "what if" scenario you should be wishing for is for your HERO to have had something OTHER than a glass jaw.

Poet

HAHAHA....

coming from you, the Leonard fanboy...

I am not a Hearns fan, I am a Hagler or Duran fan, if anything.
Hearns is chinny and that's a fact. Last week I had to spend pages explaining to people how he would have his ass kicked by Roy Jones Jr., today you call me a "rabid hearns fan"

Again beyond being a fanboy, you still did not catch my point which I wrote in clear terms THREE times. Leonard won fair and square the fight, he should have given the rematch, he did not, that's my beef.

Considering Hearns was KOing everyone he met except Hagler there was plenty of money for a rematch, moreso than for any fight Leonard took between Hearns and Hagler.

Leonard wanted no rematch with Hagler at all.

Benitez and Duran would have made Leonard less money than Finch, Howard, Bonds? yeah right... one more proof that you are a fanboy...

[wmute]

Leonard fought the best of his era. he may not have given them all timely rematches, but I guess it is a matter of opinion how big of a deal that is. Still he fought all the greats of his era and beat them all. What else does a guy have to do to earn a little respect?

He has the same respect Pea, RJJ and PBF get from me, which is a lot.

Like them, he is a GREAT athlete, a smart businessman, very occasionally a warrior.

Not to be mistaken with those greats, who I hold on a different level, which I already mentioned ealier.

[StarshipTrooper]

Can you even read what I typed? I said a rematch would have been due, not that Leonard should have won. (Leonard btw made sure he was fighting a 12 rounder with Hagler, when 15 rounds was still an option) A rematch could habe been at 12 rounds as both options were available in the mid 80s

This shows your lack of boxing knowledge. In 1981 when the first fight was fought all sanctioning bodies had 15 round championship fights, not an option, automatic. At the time of the Hagler fight, the WBC and the WBA had done away with 15 round championship fights and had gone to 12 rounders. The IBF, however, still used the traditional 15 rounds. Which ever belt was at stake determined which format was fought under.

LOOOOOL
Hearns KO2 Duran , Duran never wanted no rematch.
Hagler KO3, Hearns fights TWO more fights and retires.

compare to Leonard's "KOs" and his career going on for years, laugh at yourself....

you are like one of the Mayweather fanboys, only the Sugar Ray Leonard version

HAHAHA....

coming from you, the Leonard fanboy...

I am not a Hearns fan, I am a Hagler or Duran fan, if anything.
Hearns is chinny and that's a fact. Last week I had to spend pages explaining to people how he would have his ass kicked by Roy Jones Jr., today you call me a "rabid hearns fan"

Again beyond being a fanboy, you still did not catch my point which I wrote in clear terms THREE times. Leonard won fair and square the fight, he should have given the rematch, he did not, that's my beef.

Benitez and Duran would have made Leonard less money than Finch, Howard, Bonds? yeah right... one more proof that you are a fanboy...

Actually I'm a Duran fan NOT a Leonard fan; but even in Duran's case I'm far from being a nuthugger. I don't particularly care for Leonard. Your claims not to be a rabid Hearns fans is even more condemning: Because if you're NOT a Hearns fan then what you are is a Leonard hater. Those are the only two explanations for your vitriol towards Leonard. No amount of waaa waaaing for mommy is going to change the fact that Leonard won and Hearns lost: BY STOPPAGE!!! Hearns wasn't entitled to a rematch! He got stopped. Period. What you've managed to do is store up bile for 26 years because the fighter you despise got all the attention and glory and your guys didn't. Deal. Tough ****. You can hate all you want but it isn't going to change a damn thing so be impotent in your rage.

Poet

[wmute]

This shows your lack of boxing knowledge. In 1981 when the first fight was fought all sanctioning bodies had 15 round championship fights, not an option, automatic. At the time of the Hagler fight, the WBC and the WBA had done away with 15 round championship fights and had gone to 12 rounders. The IBF, however, still used the traditional 15 rounds. Which ever belt was at stake determined which format was fought under.

I knw my boxing dont worry, on the other hand you are unable to read english. This is what I typed:

"A rematch could have been at 12 rounds as both options were available in the mid 80s"

Before typing BS, learn to read

Actually I'm a Duran fan NOT a Leonard fan; but even in Duran's case I'm far from being a nuthugger. I don't particularly care for Leonard. Your claims not to be a rabid Hearns fans is even more condemning: Because if you're NOT a Hearns fan then what you are is a Leonard hater. Those are the only two explanations for your vitriol towards Leonard. No amount of waaa waaaing for mommy is going to change the fact that Leonard won and Hearns lost: BY STOPPAGE!!! Hearns wasn't entitled to a rematch! He got stopped. Period. What you've managed to do is store up bile for 26 years because the fighter you despise got all the attention and glory and your guys didn't. Deal. Tough ****. You can hate all you want but it isn't going to change a damn thing so be impotent in your rage.

Poet

Hearns was definitely leading on the card at the time of stoppage. He was stopping everyone and their mothers after the fight. He was damn well entitlted to a rematch.

As I said, it was not Hagler-Hearns or Hearns-Duran.

Oh wait... after claiming it is money that make rematches and having been proven wrong (Hearns was a big money option for Leonard) now you are back to "being entitled" to a rematch where you are also wrong.

If you are not a fan boy, you are just ******. That's got to be really tough to deal with.

[StarshipTrooper]

I knw my boxing dont worry, on the other hand you are unable to read english. This is what I typed:

"A rematch could have been at 12 rounds as both options were available in the mid 80s"

Before typing BS, learn to read.

Oh I read allright! Just because you said it doesn't make it correct. Indeed, since you are clearly a ******ed moron It's safe to disregard any statement you utter. I told you what the situation with the number of rounds was, but, since you have such a limited intellect it's clear you didn't comprehend.

Hearns was definitely leading on the card at the time of stoppage. He was stopping everyone and their mothers after the fight. He was damn well entitlted to a rematch.

Wrong! It doesn't matter one damn bit that Hearns was leading on the cards. He got KTFO. Just like he did against Hagler. Sorry, no rematch little man. That's the salient point you keep ignoring like the little nimrod you are. Your hatred of Leonard has clearly left you unhinged and tainted what little intellect you possess. As I said before, your posts are such that they had to come from someone who A: Is a Hearns nuthugger, or B: Is a Leonard hater. You have rejected option A which leaves us with B. I noticed you didn't deny being a Leonard hater in your last post. Are you taking the fifth on that one? Shocker! You try to cover up your shameless ignorance with bluster, but guess what? It doesn't fly! I've been around the block far to many times to buy into your moronic bull****. So, when the intellect fairy finally waves her magic wand over your empty cranium we can talk. Untill then, get a life you spastic dip****.

Poet

[The Noose]

wmute;2602930]That's exectly my point Robinson (and others like Greb or Armstrong) had 2,3 or more fights with most of his tough opponents, and that what puts him on a different level: we KNOW by facts that no matter what was going in that single fight, he was the better man.

True.
Yet to know without doubt who was better with every match up would take away the drama and endless debates that make boxing and its history so rich. It would be a little black and white.
Thats not to say i believe in no rematches.

In the case of Hagler - Leonard, a rematch with Hagler winning. I wonder whether it would diminish Leonards 'miracle' victory. As it stands, Haglers legacy was virtually untouched even if he didnt break Monzons record. Most believe he is a top 3 middleweight of all time.

As for the rematch, I think you are bordering on nuthugging here considering Leonard himself said he thought Hearns was robbed...

Last time i watched in years ago i thought it was actually very close. But since i never hear anyone else agree, i must watch it again.

what do you mean by "rightly so"?

Well, as a Hagler fan i STILL want Hagler to kick Leonards ass, but from Leonards point of view, he'd be ****** to try and repeat his 'miracle'. He did what he came back to do. As the final bell rung i believe Leonard knew he won, and Hagler knew he lost.

I agree up to a point, when Leonard is pointed out as the measuring stick for a warrior who took on all challenges, I feel like dispelling the myth.

I think the major difference between SRL and PBF is how people talk about the satisfying style of victory.
SRR did the impossible with Hagler and came from behind with Hearns. I dont think PBF has ever been in those positions and shown how deep he can dig...yet.