Ray Leonard overrated

[Jim Jeffries]

We will disagree...but live with this facts, duran 1-2 vs leonard, Benitez, 0-1 got ko'd by Leonard, Hearns 1-1 ( I will say 1 victory as we all know he beat Ray) 1 ko by Ray in their primes, Hagler 0-1 vs Ray, Kalule 0-1 vs ray got stopped, Lalond 0-1 vs ray got stopped...Took ray until he was 35 to solidly beaten soundly vs a much younger and very good fighter at jr middle hmmm.

The fact is that a Duran, at 71-1, which is to say very old in boxing terms, and with most of those fights spent cementing his legacy as an ATG at lightweight, only a year after moving up to welterweight, fights a 24 year old, 27-0 Welterweight champ Ray Leonard, who had never even fought as low as lightweight and had the majority of his fights at welterweight and BEAT him. So the heads up between Duran and Leonard doesn't look good.

[LondonRingRules]

the quality of Rays career is as good as almost anyone that ever boxed.....We will disagree...but live with this facts, duran 1-2 vs leonard, Benitez, 0-1 got ko'd by Leonard, Hearns 1-1 ( I will say 1 victory as we all know he beat Ray) 1 ko by Ray in their primes, Hagler 0-1 vs Ray, Kalule 0-1 vs ray got stopped, Lalond 0-1 vs ray got stopped...Took ray until he was 35 to solidly beaten soundly vs a much younger and very good fighter at jr middle hmmm.

** Actually you keep contaminating your facts with some some baseless accusations or claims and are slow to incorporate other facts.

I personally like Leonard as a talent and skill base, however he was uniformly and comprehensively beat by Duran in Leonard's prime regardless of the often dodgy scoring boxing has a history of. Leonard should give Duran half his ring earnings because it was that bout that seasoned him and gave him the extra impetus to make it past a tricky Kalule and extremely dangerous Hearns.

Thus far I have just addressed the scoring in his prime bouts against Duran.Benitez, and Hearns and was very generous in not supporting the minor controversy of the Hearns stoppage because I'm not here to win debates, only to examine the truth of his career. The Hearns stoppage was legit and one of the greatest fights ever that Ray deserves all the credit in, IMO.

I feel like you have done somewhat the same by acknowledging Ray's failure to grant rematches to settle controversies and the brevity of his career.

As a modern fighter, Ray does OK in making HOF fights 9 total with a 6-3 record once Camacho is inducted 5 yrs from now if he stops today, but a Joe Louis and Ali had something like a dozen or more HOF fights. Jeffries was 7-1-1 at the turn of the century in comparison, almost half his total fights. The real Sugar had something close to 30 or so HOF fights or go to Sam Langford who had 58 HOF fights, so please, some perspective talking of great career quality as there are dozens of superbly quality records equal or better than Leonard.

You seem to have a strong need to be backed by some imaginary friends to bolster yourself, and a particular need to imagine that I hate Ray because I don't rate him as highly as you. There is nutcase around here that claims to ignore me but instead spends much his time claiming I'm a Tyson nuthugger and other tinfoil beanie type accusations, completely ignoring that I rate Tyson near what his IBRO ranking is, not that I hold that IBRO rankings as the final word.

I have no control over what some nutcases want to say, Lord knows I had a barrels' worth of fun with dear departed Boozo whom I greatly miss, but it's always a mystery to me how far out in left field some of these types come from, not to discuss boxing, but thinking that they are somehow going to savage me. How juvenile is that?

Maybe in the future I will toss out a Leonard post on another thread, but maybe I'll see you on another topic, so let we'll see what else you got then. Cheers now......

[wpink1]

Gavin1970... your absolutely right. Duran won the fight and was never a welterwieght before that year, Hmmmmm What happened in the rematch. Also, if your gonna knock Ray for losing to a fighter that was never a welter..then help me understand why many (not saying you) dont credit ray for pulling the same feat vs Hagler. Hmmmm wow! & Ray had not fought but once in 5 years..vs a seasoned champ.

London Rules. I dont care to try to make you like Ray Leonard as much as I do. In fact I am a realist as much as I like ray, I look at facts, and it appears you and some others,,the minority but some others always try to find excuses for his wins. YOU brought up the points issue, not me, and the Duran fight was about as close as one could imagine. You falsly point out that Duran uniformly and comprenshivly beat Leonard. I had Leonard winning the fight, as does anyone that has ever sat down at my house and watched it and scored it, with out the sound. I challenge you to get a pen and paper out and score the actual fight...I can tell you this it hendged on how you score round 1 and 12....the others are somewhat close but tends to have clear cut winner. After rounds 4, Ray gave as good as he got, he simply and WILLIGNLY chose to fight with his back on the ropes. I also challenge you to find one point in that fight where Duran cut the ring off on a mobile Ray. You can't cuz Ray chose to go toe to toe, even waiving duran inside to war with him when his back was on the ropes. So my point in bringing this up, is many people often score the style of the fight, versus what actually was happening in the fight. I found myself originally doing this in the Leonard Hagler fight, when my original score card was 9-3 ray...however when going back and removing the volumen and looking at punches, ring genalship, etc..it was a clear 7-5 for Ray. Back to Duran. I am not knocking him as it is a great great great accomplishment to step up to Welterweight and do what he did and beat Leonard in any style of fight, because as we all know Ray has beaten legends going toe to toe also...hmmm Hearns, Benitez (leonard did very little moving in that fight too, only he was not on the ropes). Duran deserves every bit of credit for his win, but he did not comprehensivly beat Leonard, it was a close very close fight with Duran probalbly deserving the victory by round 13 but he gave away round 15 and ray won round 14... So I think you need to go revisit the fight, It was the best showing at welterwieng for two great fighters I have ever seen, and the action was intense both ways. It was however Durans night, and his type of fight.

One thing I will agree with you on. Duran did make Ray. Absolutley. You see a very skillful, and fast and elite BOXER in ray up to the Benetiz fight, even Davey Boy Green. However, after the 1st 4 rounds of fighting Duran, you saw another Leonard that never ever was there before and carried him through the hearns, hagler fights, and helped him impose himself on other fightrs that could have been a upset Kalule, and Lalond. Duran the 1st 4 rounds did beat the hell out of Ray (well rounds 2-4). I remember watching the fight a rerun, saying dammm ray is getting his ass whipped, no substance! I honestly thought that. Then came rounds 7 (5 and 6 ray easily outboxed Duran and frusterated him a bit at how it ws in the middle of the ring those 2 rounds). In rounds 7 until the end. he dug deep and got hit with shots, and immediately returned fire, and often hit duran with shots and duran returned the fire. It was a classic brawl. Ray before that fight, did not believe in himself to be able to wage a brawl and what he had inside him. He had a discussion with Jackie Gleason who told him that Duran would whip him because he is an animal, to never fight him (this was early on in his career) Leonard questioned himself after that, could he deal with that. I think Duran woke Ray up to what he had inside, and Ray needed that fight to become what he was.

You also pointed on another thing. Leonard did have a injury forced shortened career. I have never ranked him with or above an Ali, Louis, Robinson. Never. However, since the 1970's the quality of ray's career is IMO above anyone elses as I can not think of a fighter that even when you look at their entire career, Chavez, Roy Jones, DLH, etc...I can not think of a fighter that has wins over 4 fighters the caliber of a Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. Whitacker is close....Mayweather is coming up....But Yes longivity matters, and defenses matter. However would you rather support a fighter that fights greats almost each time he steps in the ring,or someone that beats the quality of fighters like say Roy Jones, or Hopkins did during his title reign. Now recenty Hopkins has solidified his resume with wins over winky, and Tarver (well tarver is not great but it is a good win). However I still take Ray's career over Bernards any day.

So you bring up good issues, but I think if you remove the bias and focus on what he did, vs whom and what he meant to boxing. I think his quality of wins will superceed the short career he had. Do I wish he would have staged wars with Pryor (well that would have been an easy win and history would not have been favorable on him beating a fighter that IN REALITY only beat one great fighter at his prime (Arguello)and he moved up too...other than that Pryor is more hype and folklore and wins vs nobodys or past their prime champs with 10 losses than great wins over top opposition), rematch with Hearns, whom I agree ray should have immediately rematch. Had he been around in 192-87 he could have fought the Marlon Starlings, Donald Curry's, LLoyd Honeyghans, Moved up and fought the beast mugabi, Julian Jackson, Simon Brown, Terry Norris when he was not a shell of the prime Leonard, The body Snatcher,...He could have and easily beaten a prime Hagler. EASILY. You all talk about how Duran was not ever a welterweight til he fought Ray, then what about Hagle rin 83..He forced hagler to box and lead...Duran was no where near the boxer Leonard was, and in 82=-83 Hagler would have been the same hagler that fought Duran and barely beat Antefermo...You let that Hagler get in the riing with Leonard, and he losses 10-11 rounds out of twelve. It is simply Hagler is not a good figher when dealing with the slightest hint of angles or mobility, or if he has to lead. Hagler is at his best ..chest to chest, or when someone comes right at him, or when he can counter punch his pponent and his opponent is right there. This is not the case with a prime Leonard. Hagler is lucky he got Ray when he was a shell of himself, and had no stamina.

So yes it would have been better had ray been able to fight from 82-88. Howver that is not the deck of cards he/we were dealt. So we can only Judge Ray off of what he did vs whom and it is better than anyone else since Ali..... No ray is not a top 5 fighter, but he a top 10 in my book....Right there along with Duran kneck and kneck...IMO slightly ahead, but I can see those who would place duran ahead. However dont start to argue he shoudl be based on his 70 wins at lightweight because that is a joke of a resume at lightweight to fight 71 fights and the best names is Ken buchanon, Esteban Dejesus ( he is good), Viruet, Kobychia,Marcil..These may be good fighters but Chavez, Mayweather, Whitacker, all have beaten better fighters....Duran gets the nod for simply coming up to Welterweight and beating Leonard, then beating Moore and Barkly at higher wieghts, but honestly his exploits at lighweight are great but the names are not legendary.

[butterfly1964]

Gavin1970... your absolutely right. Duran won the fight and was never a welterwieght before that year, Hmmmmm What happened in the rematch. Also, if your gonna knock Ray for losing to a fighter that was never a welter..then help me understand why many (not saying you) dont credit ray for pulling the same feat vs Hagler. Hmmmm wow! & Ray had not fought but once in 5 years..vs a seasoned champ.

London Rules. I dont care to try to make you like Ray Leonard as much as I do. In fact I am a realist as much as I like ray, I look at facts, and it appears you and some others,,the minority but some others always try to find excuses for his wins. YOU brought up the points issue, not me, and the Duran fight was about as close as one could imagine. You falsly point out that Duran uniformly and comprenshivly beat Leonard. I had Leonard winning the fight, as does anyone that has ever sat down at my house and watched it and scored it, with out the sound. I challenge you to get a pen and paper out and score the actual fight...I can tell you this it hendged on how you score round 1 and 12....the others are somewhat close but tends to have clear cut winner. After rounds 4, Ray gave as good as he got, he simply and WILLIGNLY chose to fight with his back on the ropes. I also challenge you to find one point in that fight where Duran cut the ring off on a mobile Ray. You can't cuz Ray chose to go toe to toe, even waiving duran inside to war with him when his back was on the ropes. So my point in bringing this up, is many people often score the style of the fight, versus what actually was happening in the fight. I found myself originally doing this in the Leonard Hagler fight, when my original score card was 9-3 ray...however when going back and removing the volumen and looking at punches, ring genalship, etc..it was a clear 7-5 for Ray. Back to Duran. I am not knocking him as it is a great great great accomplishment to step up to Welterweight and do what he did and beat Leonard in any style of fight, because as we all know Ray has beaten legends going toe to toe also...hmmm Hearns, Benitez (leonard did very little moving in that fight too, only he was not on the ropes). Duran deserves every bit of credit for his win, but he did not comprehensivly beat Leonard, it was a close very close fight with Duran probalbly deserving the victory by round 13 but he gave away round 15 and ray won round 14... So I think you need to go revisit the fight, It was the best showing at welterwieng for two great fighters I have ever seen, and the action was intense both ways. It was however Durans night, and his type of fight.

One thing I will agree with you on. Duran did make Ray. Absolutley. You see a very skillful, and fast and elite BOXER in ray up to the Benetiz fight, even Davey Boy Green. However, after the 1st 4 rounds of fighting Duran, you saw another Leonard that never ever was there before and carried him through the hearns, hagler fights, and helped him impose himself on other fightrs that could have been a upset Kalule, and Lalond. Duran the 1st 4 rounds did beat the hell out of Ray (well rounds 2-4). I remember watching the fight a rerun, saying dammm ray is getting his ass whipped, no substance! I honestly thought that. Then came rounds 7 (5 and 6 ray easily outboxed Duran and frusterated him a bit at how it ws in the middle of the ring those 2 rounds). In rounds 7 until the end. he dug deep and got hit with shots, and immediately returned fire, and often hit duran with shots and duran returned the fire. It was a classic brawl. Ray before that fight, did not believe in himself to be able to wage a brawl and what he had inside him. He had a discussion with Jackie Gleason who told him that Duran would whip him because he is an animal, to never fight him (this was early on in his career) Leonard questioned himself after that, could he deal with that. I think Duran woke Ray up to what he had inside, and Ray needed that fight to become what he was.

You also pointed on another thing. Leonard did have a injury forced shortened career. I have never ranked him with or above an Ali, Louis, Robinson. Never. However, since the 1970's the quality of ray's career is IMO above anyone elses as I can not think of a fighter that even when you look at their entire career, Chavez, Roy Jones, DLH, etc...I can not think of a fighter that has wins over 4 fighters the caliber of a Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. Whitacker is close....Mayweather is coming up....But Yes longivity matters, and defenses matter. However would you rather support a fighter that fights greats almost each time he steps in the ring,or someone that beats the quality of fighters like say Roy Jones, or Hopkins did during his title reign. Now recenty Hopkins has solidified his resume with wins over winky, and Tarver (well tarver is not great but it is a good win). However I still take Ray's career over Bernards any day.

So you bring up good issues, but I think if you remove the bias and focus on what he did, vs whom and what he meant to boxing. I think his quality of wins will superceed the short career he had. Do I wish he would have staged wars with Pryor (well that would have been an easy win and history would not have been favorable on him beating a fighter that IN REALITY only beat one great fighter at his prime (Arguello)and he moved up too...other than that Pryor is more hype and folklore and wins vs nobodys or past their prime champs with 10 losses than great wins over top opposition), rematch with Hearns, whom I agree ray should have immediately rematch. Had he been around in 192-87 he could have fought the Marlon Starlings, Donald Curry's, LLoyd Honeyghans, Moved up and fought the beast mugabi, Julian Jackson, Simon Brown, Terry Norris when he was not a shell of the prime Leonard, The body Snatcher,...He could have and easily beaten a prime Hagler. EASILY. You all talk about how Duran was not ever a welterweight til he fought Ray, then what about Hagle rin 83..He forced hagler to box and lead...Duran was no where near the boxer Leonard was, and in 82=-83 Hagler would have been the same hagler that fought Duran and barely beat Antefermo...You let that Hagler get in the riing with Leonard, and he losses 10-11 rounds out of twelve. It is simply Hagler is not a good figher when dealing with the slightest hint of angles or mobility, or if he has to lead. Hagler is at his best ..chest to chest, or when someone comes right at him, or when he can counter punch his pponent and his opponent is right there. This is not the case with a prime Leonard. Hagler is lucky he got Ray when he was a shell of himself, and had no stamina.

So yes it would have been better had ray been able to fight from 82-88. Howver that is not the deck of cards he/we were dealt. So we can only Judge Ray off of what he did vs whom and it is better than anyone else since Ali..... No ray is not a top 5 fighter, but he a top 10 in my book....Right there along with Duran kneck and kneck...IMO slightly ahead, but I can see those who would place duran ahead. However dont start to argue he shoudl be based on his 70 wins at lightweight because that is a joke of a resume at lightweight to fight 71 fights and the best names is Ken buchanon, Esteban Dejesus ( he is good), Viruet, Kobychia,Marcil..These may be good fighters but Chavez, Mayweather, Whitacker, all have beaten better fighters....Duran gets the nod for simply coming up to Welterweight and beating Leonard, then beating Moore and Barkly at higher wieghts, but honestly his exploits at lighweight are great but the names are not legendary.

Good post.

[butterfly1964]

Leonard really gets bashed on internet forums, and I don't know why. He's clearlty a top ten fighter of all-time.

[Jim Jeffries]

Leonard really gets bashed on internet forums, and I don't know why. He's clearlty a top ten fighter of all-time.

I'm not bashing Leonard AT ALL. He's clearly one of the all time greats, I just get tired of people focusing on the second Duran/Leonard fight without giving Duran his due for beating him the first time. Duran clearly fought on way too long, and the Duran most people remember was one far above his best weight, fighting in his 75th, 85th, 100+th fight and then they say "oh Duran ******." It's like people saying that Roy Jones ******, even when he didn't lose a single fight until he was 35 (you can't count the first Griffin fight where the ref disqualified him.)

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm not bashing Leonard AT ALL. He's clearly one of the all time greats, I just get tired of people focusing on the second Duran/Leonard fight without giving Duran his due for beating him the first time. Duran clearly fought on way too long, and the Duran most people remember was one far above his best weight, fighting in his 75th, 85th, 100+th fight and then they say "oh Duran ******." It's like people saying that Roy Jones ******, even when he didn't lose a single fight until he was 35 (you can't count the first Griffin fight where the ref disqualified him.)

That's not how I remember Duran. I remember him slugging it out three times with Esteban De Jesus. Oh, and destroying Pipino Cuevas. And giving Marvin Hagler the fight of his life while well past his prime. And beating Iran Barkley for a title while well past his prime. In short I remember him as one of the greatest p4p fighters of all time.

Poet

[Jim Jeffries]

That's not how I remember Duran. I remember him slugging it out three times with Esteban De Jesus. Oh, and destroying Pipino Cuevas. And giving Marvin Hagler the fight of his life while well past his prime. And beating Iran Barkley for a title while well past his prime. In short I remember him as one of the greatest p4p fighters of all time.

Poet

As do I, and those accomplishments and more when far past his prime show just how good he was. I just get upset when people make judgements about Duran and Foreman based solely on these second careers, without ever seeing enough of their respective fights in their prime.

[StarshipTrooper]

As do I, and those accomplishments and more when far past his prime show just how good he was. I just get upset when people make judgements about Duran and Foreman based solely on these second careers, without ever seeing enough of their respective fights in their prime.

Yeah, it reminds me of the idiot who asked Paul McCartney if he was with anyone before Wings.

Poet

[wpink1]

Yes Duran was great, but some make him out to be some sort of god..and the facts are he really didnt beat great fighters at Lightweight, he beat very good fighters...He did beat Ray Leonard but again it was they style of the fight that dictated the winner, as I believe Ray adjusted just fine after round 4 and from that point on,,,Duran at welterweight saw a different leonard toe to toe and when he used his boxing style. As for Duran wins vs Barkley and Moore, My hats off, those couple with his dominance at lightweight, propel Duran into my top 10...Easily but not above Ray, as Ray beat better fighters, maybe not around as a professional as long, but beating duran, hearns, benetiz, and hagler is something that not many fighters ever can touch.