Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[Franko]

Yes I do think it would be different. That being said I don't know nessacarily that he would have won the fight. Douglas fought the fight of his life that night and would have been tough to beat for anyone. The difference, I think, is that the fight wouldn't be a one-sided affair like it actually was. Instead I see a nip and tuck fight that goes to the cards with the 12th. round deciding things. All in all I think it would have made for a terrific fight.

Poet

Buster Douglas was the 42-1 underdog for the Tyson fight, and rightly so. I take nothing away from Douglas as it was a great performance against Tyson, but he let himself down in his first title defence against Holyfield. If he could have stayed as motivated as he was for the Tyson fight throughout most of his career then we may very well be talking about a great fighter! But he is remembered as a massive under achiever. That said, i think the Tyson camp (and almost everyone else) made a grave error in under estimating Douglas at the time. IMO Tyson wasn't prepared for the fight, and although Douglas didn't have a great record (losing to some mediocre opposition) i think that he came into the Tyson fight on the back of six straight wins, including victories against Trevor Berbick and Oliver McCall. OK, they are hardly victories that should have worried Mike Tyson, but taking the fight against Buster Douglas was ill advised IMO, as Tyson wasn't close to 70% in his preparation IMO, and he (and his 'yes' men) expected an easy night. The bottom line is that a fully motivated Tyson should beat the motivated Buster Douglas that he faced in 1990.

[Brassangel]

It's not necessarily the jab that beats the b&w (bob & weave). Frazier, who bobbed slower, and took longer coming back up than did Tyson, managed to slip an average of 14 jabs per round against Ali, who jabbed much faster than did Douglas even in the 1970's. Why was this?

For one, Tyson was standing flat-footed, which was normally not his style. He obviously came in out of shape, and was simply less explosive than usual. More importantly, he would perform a very predictable left+right b&w, almost never changing it up, that ran into the jab because Douglas always threw two or three at a time, catching Mike on the way back from a dip.

Secondly, Mike never slipped the jab, he just bobbed as a distraction, hoping to set up that giant bomb of a punch to put Douglas down. He also never followed any successful slips with a step to the right, followed by combination punches to the body or the head. Instead he walked straight into a clinch. He never received any advice on the matter because he brought a posse with him instead of a qualified group of intelligent, boxing cornermen. The bob & weave Mike used was designed, and implemented strongly by Cus to avoid the long jab and counter with leveraged punches.

The only reason Mike looked "good" in the first two rounds was because he spent a lot of energy hoping to have an early night, which would be followed up by an extremely late night of partying around Tokyo. He didn't take that fight to be a champion, he took it to party and get a paycheck.

Douglas wasn't so different from Tyson following this fight. He came in 12-15 pounds heavier against Holyfield, barely threw any punches, and had sagging breasts like an elderly woman without a bra.

The whole incident was a fiasco, and strangely wonderful at the same time.

[res]

It's not necessarily the jab that beats the b&w (bob & weave). Frazier, who bobbed slower, and took longer coming back up than did Tyson, managed to slip an average of 14 jabs per round against Ali, who jabbed much faster than did Douglas even in the 1970's. Why was this?

For one, Tyson was standing flat-footed, which was normally not his style. He obviously came in out of shape, and was simply less explosive than usual. More importantly, he would perform a very predictable left+right b&w, almost never changing it up, that ran into the jab because Douglas always threw two or three at a time, catching Mike on the way back from a dip.

Secondly, Mike never slipped the jab, he just bobbed as a distraction, hoping to set up that giant bomb of a punch to put Douglas down. He also never followed any successful slips with a step to the right, followed by combination punches to the body or the head. Instead he walked straight into a clinch. He never received any advice on the matter because he brought a posse with him instead of a qualified group of intelligent, boxing cornermen. The bob & weave Mike used was designed, and implemented strongly by Cus to avoid the long jab and counter with leveraged punches.

The only reason Mike looked "good" in the first two rounds was because he spent a lot of energy hoping to have an early night, which would be followed up by an extremely late night of partying around Tokyo. He didn't take that fight to be a champion, he took it to party and get a paycheck.

Douglas wasn't so different from Tyson following this fight. He came in 12-15 pounds heavier against Holyfield, barely threw any punches, and had sagging breasts like an elderly woman without a bra.

The whole incident was a fiasco, and strangely wonderful at the same time.

Thamk you. I was getting tired of reading people trying to defy the obvious common knowledge that Tyson was far from himself in the Douglas fight. Even the commentators were saying this in the early rounds, long before things started to become hopeless for Tyson.

[Poet682006]

It's not necessarily the jab that beats the b&w (bob & weave). Frazier, who bobbed slower, and took longer coming back up than did Tyson, managed to slip an average of 14 jabs per round against Ali, who jabbed much faster than did Douglas even in the 1970's.

He also took a lot of those jabs as well. After both the first and third fights with Ali Frazier's face looked like it lost a fight with a woodchipper. The proof was written all over Frazier's face: He took a beating in both fights. It wasn't a steady stream of lead rights that did the damage either: It was primarily Ali's jab that did the damage.

Poet

[Poet682006]

Thamk you. I was getting tired of reading people trying to defy the obvious common knowledge that Tyson was far from himself in the Douglas fight. Even the commentators were saying this in the early rounds, long before things started to become hopeless for Tyson.

Oh please. Would you Tyson nuthuggers quit trying to make excuses for boy?
He got beat and beat badly: Live with it.

Poet

[Franko]

Oh please. Would you Tyson nuthuggers quit trying to make excuses for boy?
He got beat and beat badly: Live with it.

Poet

There's a difference between excuses and observations. Yes, Tyson got beat badly by Buster Douglas, but anyone who believes that Tyson was at his best for this fight is seriously deluded. A fully motivated Tyson would have beat a fully motivated Buster Douglas, there's no doubt in my mind about that.

[The Iron Man]

I Just thought id put this in for all to see its from a interview with Kevin Rooney in 2004.

Mike's loss to Buster Douglas. Many people were saddened to see him on the canvas struggling to grab his mouthpiece. What did you think of that fight?
I wasn't saddened because I saw it coming. But, I was saddened when I saw Mike's next fight after Spinks, eight months later. He fought Frank Bruno (their first fight) and his skills had already become diminished. I could tell he wasn't training like he should. If Bruno could fight, he would have knocked Mike out that night. Bruno landed a punch that buckled Mike, but Bruno didn't know what to do after that! When I saw that, I knew it wouldn't be long before he got knocked out. For me, that was sad... to see Mike's skills start to unravel.

But for Douglas, the minute I saw Mike walk into the ring, I knew he wasn't in shape. I saw the fat. He wasn't ripped. I just KNEW he was partying it up in Japan before that fight. They really like to party over there in Japan. Believe me! I found that out when we went over to Japan the year before to fight (Tony) Tubbs. But, we had to refrain until AFTER the fight. It was a long plane ride over there, something like 14 hours. When we got there, Mike slept for a while and then I woke him up for a 3 mile run. Then, he would go to the gym and he worked out hard. There was no fooling around before the Tubbs fight!

Two weeks before the Douglas fight, I heard Mike weighed 250 and had to take off 30 pounds. So, he dehydrated and starved himself. In the first few rounds, Douglas came out throwing a few jabs and you could see that he was nervous. But, he was throwing punches and Mike wasn't! If I had been in Mike's corner that night, I would have said: 'Look Mike, you came all the way over here and all you did was party. You've only got 3 or 4 rounds in you and you better throw EVERYTHING you've got. If you don't knock him out in that time, I'm throwing in the towel.' If Mike had done that, he could have knocked Douglas out. But, he didn't. He let a scared fighter get brave. Once you do that, you've got problems. Brave fighters don't go back to being scared. So, as the rounds went on... Douglas got confident! And when Douglas got knocked on his ass, he punched the canvas and got up. The next round, he beat the hell out of Mike... and then stopped him.

[Brassangel]

Frazier's face did get swollen from jab work, but like I had pointed out earlier, he simply threw 3-4 times as many as did Douglas. Even still, Frazier ducked low, came back up slowly, and was still able to connect with Ali enough to punish him. Frazier didn't give up on the strategy, and that's why he ended up victorious (in their first meeting, when both fighters were closer to prime condition). Mike wasn't slipping the double jab because he was bobbing as useless motion. He didn't wait for a punch to come, he didn't use it to set up further activity, he did it for show. It was a very predictable bob, and Douglas simply threw enough punches out there to hit him.

Thanks Iron Man for posting that interview. I forgot about that.

I was watching Tyson-Holyfield II last night, and noticed something that the commentators never make mention of. When Holyfield was throwing combinations, which he threw a lot of in the first two rounds, Tyson was slipping an enormous number of them, and others were glancing the top of his head. Sure, he landed here or there, primarily in the first round, but Tyson would allow the first one to land, and then he'd slip the next three. He also remembered to throw his own punches before Holyfield could hug him. Gradually, as the second round wore on, Evander slowed down and tried to get inside quickly to avoid Mike's jab+straight right. I think that had it continued this way, Mike would have started landing uppercuts when Evander bent over at the waist to come in. It's possible that Holyfield may have started to grow tired from the excessive early punching, and Tyson's strategy would have taken over. Did anybody else notice this?

[Panamaniac]

In my book, Tyson was the best ever in his prime (pre-Douglas). Best puncher, that is. Most people say Foreman, but I say Tyson. Foreman winged his punches, but Tyson's were short, direct and far more devastating.

People in the Foreman camp like to point to how he lifted Frazier off his feet with an uppercut. People (like myself) in the Tyson camp like to point to how he destroyed Trevor Berbick, a much taller opponent. The way he had Berbick floundering around the ring was almost comical...

See for yourself: Tyson vs. Berbick

[Verstyle]

Frazier's face did get swollen from jab work, but like I had pointed out earlier, he simply threw 3-4 times as many as did Douglas. Even still, Frazier ducked low, came back up slowly, and was still able to connect with Ali enough to punish him. Frazier didn't give up on the strategy, and that's why he ended up victorious (in their first meeting, when both fighters were closer to prime condition). Mike wasn't slipping the double jab because he was bobbing as useless motion. He didn't wait for a punch to come, he didn't use it to set up further activity, he did it for show. It was a very predictable bob, and Douglas simply threw enough punches out there to hit him.

Thanks Iron Man for posting that interview. I forgot about that.

I was watching Tyson-Holyfield II last night, and noticed something that the commentators never make mention of. When Holyfield was throwing combinations, which he threw a lot of in the first two rounds, Tyson was slipping an enormous number of them, and others were glancing the top of his head. Sure, he landed here or there, primarily in the first round, but Tyson would allow the first one to land, and then he'd slip the next three. He also remembered to throw his own punches before Holyfield could hug him. Gradually, as the second round wore on, Evander slowed down and tried to get inside quickly to avoid Mike's jab+straight right. I think that had it continued this way, Mike would have started landing uppercuts when Evander bent over at the waist to come in. It's possible that Holyfield may have started to grow tired from the excessive early punching, and Tyson's strategy would have taken over. Did anybody else notice this?

Holyfield was doing a Tyson move and trying to get him out their early.If thats not an ego trip I dont know what it.haha. At the rate he was going I could see him really tiring by the 5th round,but we'll never know.