Rating old heavyweights?

[Willie Pep 229]

Everyone knew he would slaughter Miske as well, but he fought him twice. Everyone knew he'd beat Brennan, but he fought him twice. Hell, he fought little Willie Meehan 4 times I believe. Why fight them and not the best available contender?

IMHO

Miske was a friend and the second fight was a payday for an ailing friend. --- Why is Billy Miske in the HOF if he was such a bum?

Also if you look closer you will see that Dempsey's run to the championship fight was a series of KOs, (see Tyson) that is except for one strange fight that stands out, a 10 round NWS decision with Billy Miske (Ist fight). Dempsey didn't want to pound on his friend, so he spared with him.

Dempsey, so the story goes, then took Miske out early in the second fight because he didn't want to brutalize Miske, he was at the time ailing.

Check out Dempsey's run to the title starting with Homer Smith in January of 1918. It is one of the most outstanding runs fort he title in the history of the game.

And yes Willie Meehan was Dempsey's nemesis, in almost a comical way. I often wonder what the back story was to those fights because they do not fit into the history correctly.

I know I sound like a broken record but here it is again: you can't apply the standards of the NFL or the NBA and all that goes with that to prize fighting. It is an animal unto itself and there is almost always something more going on than just who deserves this or who deserves that. It is not league play and fairness isn't important, it's always about the money.

Brennan was considered to be a top challenger and a fan favorite who could draw a crowd, also he has quite a resume to his record. At one point (1922) Kearns was looking for a third fight with Brennan out in Michigan because people were calling for a rematch of the '20 fight.

I guess what I am arguing is that you can't rate fighters from different generations against each other, and in some cases you can't even rate fighters from the same generation who didn't fight each other because the circumstances weren't right. (See Garziano and LaMotta)

Posters on this forum overuse the word 'duck' and think there is all this Machiavellian conspiracy going on to the timing of fights. (See Mayweather Jr.) They don't look deep enough into the circumstances surrounding the fighters' careers. Follow the money, it's almost always the correct answer as to why/what happened.

P.S. Who was the 'best possible contender' other than Wills? We all know the circumstances behind that situation.

[JAB5239]

IMHO

Miske was a friend and the second fight was a payday for an ailing friend. --- Why is Billy Miske in the HOF if he was such a bum?

Also if you look closer you will see that Dempsey's run to the championship fight was a series of KOs, (see Tyson) that is except for one strange fight that stands out, a 10 round NWS decision with Billy Miske (Ist fight). Dempsey didn't want to pound on his friend, so he spared with him.

Dempsey, so the story goes, then took Miske out early in the second fight because he didn't want to brutalize Miske, he was at the time ailing.

Check out Dempsey's run to the title starting with Homer Smith in January of 1918. It is one of the most outstanding runs fort he title in the history of the game.

And yes Willie Meehan was Dempsey's nemesis, in almost a comical way. I often wonder what the back story was to those fights because they do not fit into the history correctly.

I know I sound like a broken record but here it is again: you can't apply the standards of the NFL or the NBA and all that goes with that to prize fighting. It is an animal unto itself and there is almost always something more going on than just who deserves this or who deserves that. It is not league play and fairness isn't important, it's always about the money.

Brennan was considered to be a top challenger and a fan favorite who could draw a crowd, also he has quite a resume to his record. At one point (1922) Kearns was looking for a third fight with Brennan out in Michigan because people were calling for a rematch of the '20 fight.

I guess what I am arguing is that you can't rate fighters from different generations against each other, and in some cases you can't even rate fighters from the same generation who didn't fight each other because the circumstances weren't right. (See Garziano and LaMotta)

Posters on this forum overuse the word 'duck' and think there is all this Machiavellian conspiracy going on to the timing of fights. (See Mayweather Jr.) They don't look deep enough into the circumstances surrounding the fighters' careers. Follow the money, it's almost always the correct answer as to why/what happened.

P.S. Who was the 'best possible contender' other than Wills? We all know the circumstances behind that situation.

The point is my friend, Wills was the best possible contender and his records reflects it. And I never said Miske was a bum. But he certainly wasn't deserving of a third Dempsey fight when fighters like Greb and Norfolk who had beat him we're shut out the same ways Wills was. It just leaves a bad taste the Dempsey never fought so many men who beat so many of his other opponents.

[them_apples]

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

sometimes it happened and the white fighter didnt always win. Look at Kid Norfolk vs Greb. It continued this way for a while, you had guys like Lamotta, or Giardello, Demarco etc

Every culture was pretty tough back then, if it happened today it would mean a lot more, cause white people tend to be coddled, but you are noticing it more within the black community as well. Just a soft era.

[them_apples]

Frazier is 1 inch taller and roughly 16 lbs heavier. And Frazier also fought (and beat) 3 guys with styles similar to Rocky's...George Chuvalo (KO), Ron Stander (KO) and Jerry Quarry twice (KO, KO). Frazier fought other sluggers and prevailed.

Marciano had just as much heart as Frazier, more experience (although Frazier's amateur background bodes well for him) and was just as dangerous late as early.

To me, the deciding factor here is Archie Moore was able to knock down (not out) Marciano, and who disputes that Frazier hits way harder than the Mongoose? Plus, only Foreman was able to KO Frazier (Manila was more wore down / TKO) And Foreman (6'3" 225) beats Rocky (5'10" 189) every time, so, I would say that if they ever fought in their prime, my pick would also be Frazier, say in about 8-9 rounds. Frazier would put too many heavy shots on the Rock for him to be able to withstand the slow beat down. I don't see Rocky landing too many on Frazier, who's defence was under rated.

This would have been a great fight.

well no, Frazier in his prime was about 198-205 lbs. Rocky started his career at 192, but in his prime was getting down to 188. Rocky was also a lot leaner than Frazier, he started looking soft aboce 200 lbs. He even looked a bit smooth vs Ali at 205.

So Frazier isnt "bigger" than Rocky, and if it is its but an absolutely meaningless margin. Rocky was 255 lbs when he retired, probably heavier than Joe at any point considering the health problems Joe had later.

Now Frazier, he does hit harder than the Mongoose, and he probably takes a better shot. He's also a lot easier to hit and a lot less tricky than Archie. Archie is simply a better fighter than Joe, but Joes got, strength, chin, youth and power on his side. However, it also plays into Rocky's style a bit and thats what makes in interesting. Most of Rockys fighters were him trying to land punches on oponents that were in survival mode. so if someone went head to head, blow to blow with Rocky, I wouldnt be so certain its a good idea.

[The Old LefHook]

Most of the very greatest black fighters were part white (Clay, Leonard, Mayweather, Jones, Foreman et al), but the reverse is not true at all. Joe did not enjoy that kick start. These two would fight to a draw almost every time because styles make fights. Occasionally Rock would knock him wedge-cold.

It was impossible to stop Marciano on cuts. Peeled, he would still fight on.

[Rockin']

With the old-time fighters it was their job to fight, get paydays and continue on. It wasn't like today where fighters MUST retain their 0. They would go out and fight whoever, like James Toney did in modern times, waay back in the day. They were fighters and that's what they did. They were not technical 'avoiders' protecting an 0. .........Rockin'

[Willie Pep 229]

With the old-time fighters it was their job to fight, get paydays and continue on. It wasn't like today where fighters MUST retain their 0. They would go out and fight whoever, like James Toney did in modern times, waay back in the day. They were fighters and that's what they did. They were not technical 'avoiders' protecting an 0. .........Rockin'

Very true . . . but can we blame the fighters today? . . . promoters/television/fans are the ones demanding the damn "0" -- they don't respect the game . . . there may well be many fighters today who would like to learn/apply their trade by fighting more often but it's just plain PPV suicide.

Brett Favre is remembered as an ATG QB, he has a .624 win/lose record. Imagine a fighter today who loses four of every ten fights. Forget ATG, he couldn't make a living.

[Rick Taylor]

Most of the very greatest black fighters were part white (Clay, Leonard, Mayweather, Jones, Foreman et al), but the reverse is not true at all. Joe did not enjoy that kick start. These two would fight to a draw almost every time because styles make fights. Occasionally Rock would knock him wedge-cold.

It was impossible to stop Marciano on cuts. Peeled, he would still fight on.

mention this to that larry guy in nsb. i want to see his reaction

[Rockin']

Very true . . . but can we blame the fighters today? . . . promoters/television/fans are the ones demanding the damn "0" -- they don't respect the game . . . there may well be many fighters today who would like to learn/apply their trade by fighting more often but it's just plain PPV suicide.

Brett Favre is remembered as an ATG QB, he has a .624 win/lose record. Imagine a fighter today who loses four of every ten fights. Forget ATG, he couldn't make a living.

I agree with it being the promoters, television networks and the likes fault about keeping the 0, they don't respect and don't even know the sport of boxing or what makes the sport great.
And you are correct that it is not the fighters fault (but more on that at another time).

Hell, if Favre is an all-time great with a .62 win percentage, by those standards, I was nearly an ATG. But of course boxing is not football and I was no where near being an ATG........Rockin'

[Dr. Z]

How can you rate guys like dempsey and sullivan since they never foguht black opponants.

Dempsey did fight a black opponent in John Lester Johnson and according to news reports should have lost. Box Rec has it as a draw.

The problem with Dempsey is quality of opponents. He did not fight Harry Wills or Harry Greb, with were makable fights.