Rating old heavyweights?

[Terry A]

I got Frazier stopping Rocky late. You?

Frazier is 1 inch taller and roughly 16 lbs heavier. And Frazier also fought (and beat) 3 guys with styles similar to Rocky's...George Chuvalo (KO), Ron Stander (KO) and Jerry Quarry twice (KO, KO). Frazier fought other sluggers and prevailed.

Marciano had just as much heart as Frazier, more experience (although Frazier's amateur background bodes well for him) and was just as dangerous late as early.

To me, the deciding factor here is Archie Moore was able to knock down (not out) Marciano, and who disputes that Frazier hits way harder than the Mongoose? Plus, only Foreman was able to KO Frazier (Manila was more wore down / TKO) And Foreman (6'3" 225) beats Rocky (5'10" 189) every time, so, I would say that if they ever fought in their prime, my pick would also be Frazier, say in about 8-9 rounds. Frazier would put too many heavy shots on the Rock for him to be able to withstand the slow beat down. I don't see Rocky landing too many on Frazier, who's defence was under rated.

This would have been a great fight.

[hemichromis]

Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

which fighters are you talking about?
dempsey did fight at least one black guy he was a huge guy but i don't remember his name.

a fighter can only be judged against the fighters he fights. the public didn't want to see black vs white so it never happened

[McGrain]

Welcome to BS McGrain.

Thanks bud.

[McGrain]

which fighters are you talking about?
dempsey did fight at least one black guy he was a huge guy but i don't remember his name.

a fighter can only be judged against the fighters he fights. the public didn't want to see black vs white so it never happened

Interesting that you say the public didn't want to see black v white fights - but point out that Dempsey fought in one. Why? I think the public did want to see these fights.

Mcvey and Wills would have been the main ones. Jack Johnson was campaigning for a shot at the title I beleive. Though a lot of that may have been hokum, he certainly would have got one these days.

Interestingly though it is a white fighter, Harry Greb, who may feel most hard done by after Wills.

Anyway, fighting any of these guys is certainly better than what he did - very little. Wasn't he the most inactive champion ever? Any one of these guys would be better than "no-one".

[QueensburyRules]

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

- -Ye aulde my shyte don't stink, U doodoo do paradox.

Jack has two black fighters on his record and interminable unrecorded in a SaltLake City gym he worked in, trained in, and fought out of run by a black contender whose name escapes me at the moment.

[QueensburyRules]

Interesting that you say the public didn't want to see black v white fights - but point out that Dempsey fought in one. Why? I think the public did want to see these fights.

Mcvey and Wills would have been the main ones. Jack Johnson was campaigning for a shot at the title I beleive. Though a lot of that may have been hokum, he certainly would have got one these days.

Interestingly though it is a white fighter, Harry Greb, who may feel most hard done by after Wills.

Anyway, fighting any of these guys is certainly better than what he did - very little. Wasn't he the most inactive champion ever? Any one of these guys would be better than "no-one".

- -McVea died in a flu epidemic circa 1919 or so. Langford lobbyied for a title fight, but half blind by then. Wills the only viable as the youngest black champion left standing, but initially Rickard refused after the Jeffries/Johnson riots leaving dozens of corpses and uncounted property damage sorta like 2020!!!

JJOHNSON came closest and the media actually announced that bout in Mexico City, but again , JJ had been virtually booted out of Mexico when he surrendered to US Feds to serve his one year prison sentence.

Net result is no one in Mexico ever wanted to see him again, so deal nixed.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -McVea died in a flu epidemic circa 1919 or so. Langford lobbyied for a title fight, but half blind by then. Wills the only viable as the youngest black champion left standing, but initially Rickard refused after the Jeffries/Johnson riots leaving dozens of corpses and uncounted property damage sorta like 2020!!!

JJOHNSON came closest and the media actually announced that bout in Mexico City, but again , JJ had been virtually booted out of Mexico when he surrendered to US Feds to serve his one year prison sentence.

Net result is no one in Mexico ever wanted to see him again, so deal nixed.

What you say about JJ is all true (regarding Mexico) but I don't think the Mexico City fight was ever really on the table. I believe Doc Kearns was just using JJ as leverage to keep Dempsey away from Rickard. Kearns understood Rickard would never promote a Johnson or a Wills-Dempsey fight so he kept the prospect alive to keep Rickard stymied.

The Mexico fight was proposed during 1922 when Kearns was out beating the bushes looking for any defense he could find that wouldn't include New York or Rickard. He of course found that fight (mistake) in Shelby MT.

[louis54]

Dempsey would slaughter wills and everone who bboxed both... Knew it
Jack kearns manager of harry wills and jack Dempsey " dempsey could have taken two of him (wills) before breakfast "
Wills got screwd but you could blame the brioters in 1910

[QueensburyRules]

What you say about JJ is all true (regarding Mexico) but I don't think the Mexico City fight was ever really on the table. I believe Doc Kearns was just using JJ as leverage to keep Dempsey away from Rickard. Kearns understood Rickard would never promote a Johnson or a Wills-Dempsey fight so he kept the prospect alive to keep Rickard stymied.

The Mexico fight was proposed during 1922 when Kearns was out beating the bushes looking for any defense he could find that wouldn't include New York or Rickard. He of course found that fight (mistake) in Shelby MT.

- -Remember this.

More later.

[JAB5239]

Dempsey would slaughter wills and everone who bboxed both... Knew it
Jack kearns manager of harry wills and jack Dempsey " dempsey could have taken two of him (wills) before breakfast "
Wills got screwd but you could blame the brioters in 1910

Everyone knew he would slaughter Miske as well, but he fought him twice. Everyone knew he'd beat Brennan, but he fought him twice. Hell, he fought little Willie Meehan 4 times I believe. Why fight them and not the best available contender?