Had Norton been able to win the 13th round he probably would have won the fight, but Holmes had him ready to go and almost put him down.
Another thing that was great about this fight? It was broadcast live on network TV. A fight between two fighters of that caliber today would definitely cost 50 clams for PPV.
A perfect illustration of why boxing had more popularity back then than it does now.
Yeah, Tito only lost twice because he retires like a sulking little bitch after the losses. Sorry, you can't get a better legacy by running away and crying for 3 years (or permanently) after every loss.
I gave Grady a close win, 5 rounds to 4 with one even.
As for the K9 fight, foul or no foul, he was kicking Bravo's ass all over the place and looked like a much different fighter than he did in the rest of the tournament. In his fight with Forbes he spent way too much time doing the John Ruiz huggy bear crap, but in the fight against Bravo he fought smart and set up his power shots well, as Bravo's battered face attests too. Let him take that back to the barrio while he talks all his racist La Raza shit.
"We've got a new heavyweight champion of the world... and he's an AMERICAN!!!"
"And Winky is BADLY hurt... really! Honestly! I'm not pretending at all!"
The HBO crew used to be good, but malaise is setting in badly. Anyone remember the days when Larry sounded like he actually gave a fuck?
Hell, does anyone remember the last time Larry sounded sober? Maybe during Hopkins-Trinidad ... and before that ... maybe McCallum-Curry.
Agree with the other posters who are pro-Teddy Atlas. Regardless of his faults or his palooka-like accent, at least he is objective and managed to keep his mouth away from the wedding tackle of his favorite fighters, whoever they might be.
For the most part I like him, but sometimes his bias for the HBO house boys clouds his objectivity and makes him unbearable to listen to. The two Hopkins-Taylor fights were perfect examples of this, as he cheerleaded so hard for Taylor that I thought he was going to break out the pom-poms.
You're not going to get a truly rational answer to the question, but it's along the same lines as people being rabid fans of a football team, basketball team, etc. Or the same thing that caused half the crowd in the Colusseum in Rome to root for one gladiator while the other half rooted for someone else. It's just the way it is.
Oscar, because he showed something that Tito never showed - the ability to get up and come back after a defeat.
Oscar arguably got screwed in his fight with Tito, legitimatly lost his first fight with Mosely, got screwed in his second fight with Mosely and then had his liver damn near lacerated by Hopkins. But each time he got up and came back to fight again, and had some impressive wins after those defeats.
Tito on the other hand gets schooled by Hopkins, and save for a virtual exhibition against a never-was in Cherif, goes running off into a sulking retirment to wallow in his wussitude because that big meanie Bernard Hopkins beat him and hurt his feewings. Three years after Hopkins he finally comes back, gets one impressive win before going up against Winky and eats leather for 12 rounds. What does Tito do after the Winkster pitches a virtual shutout against him? Runs right back into retirement to sulk some more.
Fighters with a great legacy also learn to bounce back from defeat. Leonard did. Hearns bounced back from a loss to Leonard and a devastating defeat to Hagler. Duran came back and won a MW belt years after getting crushed by Hearns. And Hagler bounced back from two early career defeats as well as totally being screwed in the so-called "draw" with Vito Antofuermo (a fight which even Vito says Marvin won). All those guys learned to bounce back, learned to deal with setbacks and came back even stronger. Their unquestioned legacies are earned.
DLH also showed ability to bounce back from a defeat. All Tito has shown in the wake of a loss is the ability to announce his retirement so he could run home and cry on daddy's shoulder. Yeah, some legacy.
4- Vargas was not the same fighter after the Tito fight and Tito demolished him, he did not cheat, that is pure garbage.
There is so much more that i can state but that is it for now....
Frazier wasn't the same after his demolition by Foreman either, was he? Still doesn't mean he wasn't a helluva fighter, nor does it diminish Ali's win over him in the Thrilla in Manila.
This whole argument of trying to act like DLH's win over Vargas (a goosed-up on steroids Vargas, no less) doesn't mean anything because Tito beat him first is more than just garbage, it's the whole fucking dump.
As far as legacies of Puerto Rican fighters goes, Trinidad doesn't even have the best of that group. Wilfred Benitez at age 17 totally schooled an older, more experienced Antonio Cervantes, beat a damn good WW champ in Carlos Palomino at age 20, and knocked the holy fuck out of Jr. Middle champ Maurice Hope by age 22. He was a great boxer, great counterpuncher, great defensive fighter, and had knockout power in either hand, knew how to adapt in the ring and knew how to bounce back from a defeat. Tito never showed any of those things. His legacy doesn't even begin to compare to that of Benitez.
I'm confused, alot of you are saying ODHL never got beat down convincingly. Tito held stong with BHOP until the 12th round, and still got up, while DLH got hit, when down, and stayed down rounds before that. Its awkward the votes are 59-16 in DHL favor, but it seems the people talking are the ones who pick Tito. Come on DLH fans, I want to hear why you think your man is so great?? Call me a hater, but I've alwsy though DLH is way over-rated.
Held strong my ass. B-Hop almost put Tito to sleep at the end of the 10th with a huge uppercut. And before that, he pounded on him with power shots for round after round, throwing and landing more punches than Tito in every round of the fight. Tito was a KO waiting to happen when he came out for the 12th.
BTW, if you ever see the 'Beyond the Glory' with Bernard Hopkins, one of B-Hop's trainers said DLH was actually the tougher opponent, as he actually had skills (their words, not mine).
Hell, B-Hop beat the fight right out of Tito, which is exactly why he had to go off and sulk like a little girl for 3 years afterward and is sulking now because of the schooling that Winky gave him.
Oh, and to all of you saying that all Oscar did was beat Tito's leftovers with Vargas and Mayorga, that's about as fucking stupid as saying all Ali did in Manila was beat Foreman's leftover's in Joe Frazier.
You guys act like Tito was not or shouldn't have taken a break. The guy is human you know, regardless if he retired after a loss, he took a break, he's been fighting since he was 16 non stop. Not for nothing DLH has had some LONG ass vacations himself, he just doesn't say he's retired. Tito in my eyes has a better legacy, but in the books it will go to DLH cause he is the "redblooded american", he has done well in boxing but he has fought people who already were demolished by Tito. Ok wityh Vargas, what if Vargas would've foought DLH before he fought tito. I bet Vargas would've beaten DLH cause he was much younger at the time, plus he would've been undefeated. But we'll never know cause tito took away Vargas hunger. Once Vargas felt that left hook, in the first. Done deal. Entertaining fight but Tito schooled him. And the way he finished him was spectacular. Now how did DLH beat Vargas? With the same punch Tito did the left hook. Meaning, DLH copied Tito's technique.
Taking a break?!?! Tito didn't merely take a break - he stated himself he had retired as he had nothing left to accomplish in boxing!! Then he finally, after 3 years, pokes his head out and decides to fight again. Looks impressive against Mayorga, but then gets outboxed in such an extreme and embarrassing fashion by Winky that he gets shut out on one card and gets one sympathy round apiece on two other cards - and he retires again!!
And Vargas being much younger when he fought Tito compared to his fight against DLH? Math ain't your strong suit is it?? The Tito and DLH fights took place less than two years apart for Fernando, and he was a mere 5 days shy of his 23rd birthday when he fought the first of those two bouts ... which means he was a few months short of his 25th birthday when he fought DLH ... comprende? Not exactly an old man, and he went into the DLH fight with only the one loss on his record at an age where one can recover from what happened to him in the Trinidad fight. And as I said earlier in the thread, it was nowhere near on the same level as the beating an older Joe Frazier took at the hands of George Foreman, yet that didn't stop Frazier from giving Ali hell on two more occasions afterward.
And DLH copying Tito's technique ... give me a break. DLH had been a left-hooker since he was a kid and everybody knew going in it was always his best punch.
As far as having a better legacy, it has nothing to do with Oscar being a red-blooded American, particularly when Oscar makes more of his Mexican heritage than he ever did of his American citizenship. I've already mentioned another fighter from Puerto Rico (Wilfred Benitez) on this thread who should have a much greater legacy than Tito ever could, so that excuse doesn't fly either.
Face it - Tito was a limited, one-dimensional fighter who scored some spectacular knockouts but was totally defenseless once he was exposed by B-Hop (and arguably by DLH, although the contraversy masked it at the time). He showed absolutely no ability to adjust in the ring when his plan A wasn't working, even after a 3 year retirement where he had plenty of time to think about what went wrong. And he showed no ability whatsoever to psychologically recover from a defeat and carry on his career that so many other great champions have. He's overrated. Deal with it.
This one is almost too tough to call between Ali and Foreman.
On one hand, the odds of Foreman coming back after a 10-year layoff to even become worthy contender were pretty long, but not only did he do that he took it all the way to winning a peice of the HW championship again. Enjoy it, because you will probably never see something like that again.
On the other hand, Ali came back after his exile and again became the dominant HW in an era that was loaded with talent ... Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Lyle among others.
I think Marciano's accomplishment, while definitely noteworthy, came in an era of very small heavyweights and one where there wasn't a whole lot of talent around.
Tyson's accomplishment trails all of those, as he became the youngest champ in a pretty weak era.
I agree with some of the other posters here ... who gives a fuck where a fighter is from? I'm as patriotic as they get in other areas, but when it comes to boxing, I for the most part don't give a damn if the HW champ is American or not. In fact, I was rooting for Oleg against Rahman (the American) because Rahman is an underacheiver and Oleg, while limited in ability, always gave it his best effort. Similarly, I immensely enjoyed watching a Brit like Lennox flatten Mike Tyson, Tyson's nationality be damned.