Lets say for the sake of argument...because its not true lol...that De La Hoya was at his best when he fought Floyd. So Floyd would then have a close win over a fighter who makes the ATG list towards the bottom... because De La Hoya is a debatable entry onto that list at Best!
Lets compare that with Andre Ward who has fought the best guys in his division, some of whom are arguably on a par with De La Hoya, and outclassed them. Thats the difference. Froch didn't get beat by ward in a cat and mouse fight where he stopped being effective (De La Hoya was jabbing Floyd early and succefully). No!! Froch was taken apart, as Kessler was and then Ward beat a man going up in weight who was supposed to be the new big puncher.
Ward does what an ATG fighter is supposed to do. Roy Jones didn't beat James Toney, he took him apart! Mayweather has never had that type of performance against a fighter of the same calibre. Yes hes a great fighter, at 130 - 135, and t would have been great to see him against another great light weight.
Its just a straw man when people talk about fighters like margarito. the fact of the matter is Floyd bares a similarity to Calzighe in that he never fought competition that would show he was a step up from other great fighters in his prime division...Im not blaming him, maybe it wasnt possible!
The fallacy in your boxing IQ cuts deep on so many levels it's ridiculous. Floyd adjusted, partially, by taking away De La Hoya's jab while Ward dominated Froch by making no adjustments at all and you wanna use Froch as a shining example of Ward's greatness.
Then you quote Kovalev as being the 'boogeyman' puncher that Ward beat as a great prime fighter yet refuse to acknowledge De La Hoya (more accomplished - facts).
Fighters adjusting has nothing to do with the issue raised, its a straw man. All fighters make adjustments and the question never was who adjusts more. The issue raised was the comparative quality of a fighter like De La Hoya. You will find, if you look that De La Hoya's relative place in boxing is often debated. There are threads here on the subject. Again thats not the issue there is plenty of information on that subject, I will look and send you a thread...there was one a few years back or so.
I think you are under the impression that De La Hoya is better than he was frankly, that is an opinion on my part. You just have to look at his career, his wins, loses, his performances and compare them to a guy like Froch. As far as Kovalev, we don't know how far he will go but he certainly is on a trajectory that appears to show possible greatness.
Your not seeing the point raised for whatever reason: that a great fighter generally has certain characteristics that, for example, Ward shows, and some of which Floyd lacked.
Rather than debate Oscar's greatness or lack thereof I will look for the thread I speak of and you can see what a lot of posters argue....I really just do not want to siddetrack debating De La Hoya lol.
'If you can't define what constitutes a great fighter in his prime is then the whole argument is nonsensical anyway'
It's true 'all fighters make adjustments in the ring' but the degree to which this is utilized constitutes how a fighter is judged, alongside power, offensive/defensive tools etc. But, make no mistake, some qualities should be revered above others simply because they're more important. When comparing Oscar to Froch all of those traits need to be taken into consideration as the rest of the argument then devolves into judging a 'win's win's win and forever recurring like that'. It's right here in this thread where we can end the cycle.
Ultimately. Judging the fighter on how close he was to his physical and psychological prime is all we can do. The reason I use Oscar is because not only did he possess all of those traits but the man could adjust his tactics and outbox his opponents well (Mosley2). If you want to go into depth on how Froch is better then send me gifs or show/tell me videos which back your claim.
You say I'm missing the point but fail to give me the characteristics that Ward shows which Floyd lacks.
Oscar De La Hoya was as close to his prime as he was going to get , experienced, healthy and certainly in the classification of a 'great' fighter (resume and skill wise) yet his win is always disputed.
If you can't define what constitutes a great fighter in his prime is then the whole argument is nonsensical anyway.
I'm not going to break down your list but I already saw flaws in it quickly. You said Hatton was undefeated and beat Kostya. Yeah he was undefeated at 140lbs where Pac starched him, not 147lbs (out of his prime weight class) where Callazo nearly KO'd him.
Mosley was on a win streak but still past his prime. Cotto has not been as destructive above 147lbs as he was at 147lbs and lower, nor in his prime. Canelo was green as F**k. Dela Hoya also not at his prime weight or career prime. Corralles had just come out of prison (Floyd knew this). Gatti was never above C level. It was just Jr.'s entry win to being known to the public but not yet as a beating Oscar known (worldwide). Baldomir? Please, despite his "win" streak, I would of never picked Baldomir to win. He was a serious Cinderella man. Judah has always been a mental midget and known to break in every big fight he's been in but I'll give Jr. that one.
Boom.
Great. So now tell me how Floyd was in at his prime weight when he fought De la Hoya or how he was in his career prime?
Give me the conditions and then watch me break down any win in history using your own logic. Watch bruv.
You know how stupid you look when you misread the point of the post and make a comment about intellect?:bottle:
There are threads here that attest to ambivalence regarding how good Oscar was. Hes not by any stretch a super elite fighter, he may sneak in as an ATG. Ward fought guys who are excellent fighters, some of whom may turn out to be on a par with De La Hoya (Kovalev, Froch perhaps even). Whether Floyd made an adjustment is immaterial. Ward dominated the best in his respective weight class, and at their best.
And...lets remember that your the retard who said the De La Hoya facing May was near his best...thats truly something that should make one question boxing IQ lol. I gave that to you, and if you think about it its a ridiculous thing to say.
So whether Froch, Dawson, Kovalev, made adjustments is immaterial! Whether the barn burns down, or the barbq is fired up, roast pigs means roast pork...figure that one out IQ master.
Let me tell you this. The ability to adjust is one of the most important assets to have in a ring. It's why fighters like Roberto Duran and FMJ are heralded and it's a key measuring stick in figuring out how well a boxer does against an opponent.
Oscar not being able to adjust only shows how great Floyd is in comparison to other ATGs. But we can look through history and see that Oscar clearly adjusts to his opponents well (Felix/Vargas). Since you brought up Froch and decided to compare him to Oscar please tell me any fight Froch has adapted well? If not then could you please enlighten me on what traits/skills Froch possesses that make him superior to Oscar?
If not. Nonsensical.
well, did nt you say there are vast range of styles..reason why i named as many as i could and asked you to add some more
and that fighter a and be thing, i made that clear in my previous post...
lol , marcos did not have his success on mid range but he did have good strat to not get worked on there but points wise , he did his success on roughing floyd up on the inside , everyone knew that that reason why many thought he was fighting dirty...he would'nt have been able to get dirty mid range, floyd was too smart for that...
like i said , im only making my claims based on what we know , forget the complexity coz that would make it impossible to argue your case or aganits mine...
Floyd could always tie him up on the inside like he did to Maidana in the second fight if we're talking comparison.
Pryor is the most underrated and unappreciated fighter of all time. Sugar Ray Leonard was overrated as f**k
Yeah SRL, for me anyway, is the most overrated fighter of all time.
Wasn't Ray Leonard like 45 years old ? he did knock Floyd Sr though
Floyd Sr said his hand was hurt and if you look at the first few rounds you can see that he was outboxing him man vs boy style. I'm going under these assumptions and plus they're different fighters.
Ray Leonard was 39 I believe around the same age Floyd is when he fought Maidana and 13 pounds above his natural weight class which would make Floyd 143. Do you really think Floyd would lose to camacho at 143 pounds?
Hey dumba$$, I was also a fan of Floyd's for 10 years and at one point I hated Duran. Go ahead and put up a poll on who would win and there would be a lot of people Picking Duran, not just me. Your little mindless pointing out of Gamboa and Pac would have nothing to do with the fact that I am not the only one who would pick Duran. Leave child, you are dismissed. Go.
You mean these highly skilled boxers, these world champions, these multi division conquerors. Oh you must mean the great Dirk Diggler UK who shut out a prime Roy Jones Jr then stopped him in the 12th.
Oh ok then my bad big man.
Wait, wait, wait, the same Floyd that lost to JLC in the first fight, and the same one that had a decently close fight with JLC in the 2nd fight would easily beat, and KO Duran at 135?
The same Floyd that was getting a bit troubled by Jesus Chavez, and his pressure style? He won the fight, but didn't look like a boxing God by any means in that fight.
Broken arm in the 1st fight and the 2nd fight was pretty much a shutout.
Jesus Chavez didn't outbox Floyd he got off random rights and jabs which landed similar to Maidana and got KTFO simple as. It was a pretty easy fight in retrospect.
But as for a match-up between those two I don't see how Duran can outbox Floyd in anyway given what I've seen of him.
Duran felt that in his era the competition was significantly better. I remember him saying that Floyd is so good in this era because most of the fighters today suck. He said that Floyd is just so much better than them. But that in his era, Floyd would just be another fighter.
So he was really speaking about the difference in competition between today and back then. Ray Leonard also said similar things. Like he feels Floyd is one of the few fighters today that could compete in his era.
Ray Leonard lost against Camacho. He has a point. But still.
Froch isn't elite, he has to pick on his untalented countrymen to compensate his inadequacy to the global elite such as the Wards and Dirrells. He also picked on an old washed up Mikkel Kessler like the shameful twit he is.. Froch is smart for somehow getting attention to these fights.
Mikkel Kessler is younger than Carl Froch and didn't seem washed up in that fight.
First of all to all these dumba$$es who believe Floyds excuse on torn rotator cuff tear it was all an excuse a torn rotator cuff is only fixed by surgery you retards if you had a tear and kept training I can guarantee you that arm would be worthless after 1 year. Where does Floyd have scars from a surgery if he had surgery he would have been crying to Leaderman that he's having surgery. Floyd Lost the first Castillo fight 8 rounds to 4 he barley won the second 7 to 5 but it should have been awarded to Castillo for the previous robbery
Yet he switched to southpaw several times in the fight and repeatedly said my hand/arm is hurting. I don't know if it was a torn rotator cuff but he wasn't performing how he normally does and so I go under the assumption he was telling the truth.
I'm not going to argue with you about the scoring because it would simply be pointless I'll just leave it at black power and TBE.
Agenda? Didn't you just say he easily out boxes Duran, and KO's him?
Why don't you actually watch the fight, and find out. Something you don't do. I'm not gonna sit here, and re watch a fight for you, just to give you the exact rounds he won. Ya lazy bum.
No if you look through you lazy bum you'll realize I corrected James and said it wouldn't be an easy fight for Floyd at 135 but he's still the favourite IMO because I see weaknesses that Floyd could capitalize on. Floyd never KOs Duran, even at lightweight where he wasn't so feather.
I've seen the fight and last time I remember it was a shutout.
Actually, Floyd would not be able to make demands. He would be something of a star below welterweight but at welterweight, Leonard, Hearns, Duran would be calling the shots once Mayweather stepped into 147. He would get whet they decide to give him and it would not be enough to buy all those HO's he has around him and the rent-a-relationship folks he has around him. He would be living a modest, humble life in the shadows of those superstars.
Coming from a Gamboa fan I'm not suprised by anything you've said.
Anthony Dirrell should come to England and bring that fat black bell-end that goes around barking with him so I can knock him out personally myself.
Froch wrecks Anthony. He's sh1t.
Froch has been outboxed by nearly everyone he's faced if Anthony Dirrell's chin holds up then it's easy work ........... you know it I know it.
I remember this quote from Duran. I took it to mean that Floyd would have been in the same class as SRL, Hearns, Duran, maybe Benitez. He wouldn't have stood out as the only great fighter as he does now.
Floyd is fab, but let's be clear. He never beat anyone of Duran's caliber, or Leonard's, or Hearns' -- or Arguello or Pryor at 140. He beat a washed up Oscar and Mosely and for whatever reason never faced the other outstanding fighter of his own time, Pacquiao.
To those who think Cotto or Maidana are as good as Duran, I have nothing to say to you. And there's never been an opponent resembling Leonard on Floyd's resume, so it's hard to say whether Floyd could have handled a guy like that.
Duran clearly respects Floyd and was pointing out that, back in the day, he wouldn't have been the only great fighter around 147 or so. Today, he is.
Duran said Floyd was the sole reason that the Pacquiao fight wasn't happening, trust me if you do enough research you'll realize that Duran is one if the biggest Floyd haters.
Pacquiao is not an outstanding fighter he was on steroids if everyone was on what he was on well................ we all saw what happened in the 4th fight ( I'm already fully red k'd up I don't care).
And you're contradicting yourself even if Floyd beat Pacquiao he'd never, according to your logic, beaten a fighter like Leonard or Duran so how could you even compare them.
Oscar and Mosley would never beat Floyd those fights clearly show that they were outboxed. Oscar wasn't past prime and Mosley was good enough to compete with him.
anthony would get beat by froch but andre would stop him imo, win for sure. andre is even further away from getting the fight but still, thats the way they should approach it.
Ward wouldn't knock out Froch, Iron is iron, Flash is a flash.
Obviously a newbie like you has no ability to debate what I said. You've been owned and it took nothing to own you. This has nothing to do with Gamboa, dumbsht.
You insinuated that Mayweather would of lost to Duran had they eventually met at lightweight and you're a fan of Pacquiao and Gamboa put the dots together and realise your a mook.
Anthony Dirrell isn't some master boxer. He took two tries to beat an old ass Sakio Bika. And he looked fuking terrible both times :lol1:
Oh right and Froch is SRR reborn come on man he isn't hard to beat and your talking to one of his biggest fans here but he got handled by a "supposed" one handed Ward.
Froch is the favorite against any chinny fighters with above average boxing skills but if they have a chin and some defense he's easy work.
No, they're close in most people's minds. Duran as a LW was such a force for so long and with such domination -- that made him great. Then skipping a weight class to jump right into the ring against one of the greatest WW's of all time and defeating him took him to another level.
Then the comeback against Davy Moore for the Jr MW...good Lord. And a fine performance against Hagler all the way up at MW.
Some losses -- like Ali had losses -- but the wins and the competition in multiple weight classes gives Duran a big lift in many people's minds.
I'd put him and Leonard on the same level
I can respect that.
But the Hagler, Hearns and Benitez losses, combined with the fact that he lost to SRL when he used more footwork and the fact that none of his lightweight competition never really stepped up the plate to accomplish anything spectacular puts him lower than SRL for me anyway.
From what ive read, if Groves wins over the weekend, he is mando for Dirrell
If Dirrell breats Groves, then the Froch fight might make sense
Although Groves will cause serious problems for Dirrell
Does nothing for Froch's legacy he won't take it I think.
Dirrell sparred with him before and said he was pretty green so I don't know about the problems bit.
Outboxing him until he got stopped and then knocked the fuk out the second time? So yeah all that "outboxing" he did meant sh1t all in the end.
Fight isn't going to happen because Froch isn't going to waste his time on someone as insignificant as Anthony "Dog Sh1t" Dirrell. Please....
Like I said before above average boxing skills and a chinny guys aren't favorites against Froch he'll break you down you have to have a decent chin and a decent defense.
Funny how he went from a combination puncher to a one punch knock-out artist kinda like Marquez.
Anyway I'm done with this sh1t have fun with your big black bellends.
Hey dumba$$, I was also a fan of Floyd's for 10 years and at one point I hated Duran. Go ahead and put up a poll on who would win and there would be a lot of people Picking Duran, not just me. Your little mindless pointing out of Gamboa and Pac would have nothing to do with the fact that I am not the only one who would pick Duran. Leave child, you are dismissed. Go.
Are you white?