Fox_McCloud

I just think there is a double standard in effect. Pac can go fight Ben Tackie (Clottey) and he gets a pass from all the pactards, but the idea of Floyd fighting Nate gets brought up and its all "OMG" around here. pretty sad...... Lol, you mean the prime welterweight who arguably beat Cotto, compared to the guy who got his wish granted by getting an NC against Bradley, because he was getting the rolljob put on him by a younger, prime, slick fighter? I mean... Clottey is probably a more legitimate welterweight opponent than Campbell to be honest.

lol .. so your trying to say that michael nunn was a bum ? ... he was the best out there at the time wasnt he ? ... and ill give michael nunn the first half of the fight , but jt was coming back ... man gimme some of that shit you smokin You seem to have trouble reading. I said that Nunn was very good, but a volume puncher is clearly the best style matchup for a master counterpuncher. You also seem to have trouble with things like punctuation, and just generally seem to be a dipshit who can't argue to save his life. So leave me be. If anyone who doesn't have trouble eating without slopping food down the front of themselves wants to argue the point with me, I'd welcome the debate.

Are you serious ?? ... so you think jones and hopkins are better ? .. man, rjj was really good in his prime im not gonna doubt that, but he was so good because of his speed. He never fought the best, jt wants to only fight the best, man i could go on and on but i cbf . That's what I mean by skillwise. When it comes to skill, he doesn't stand up to Hopkins and Jones. Resume wise, it might be a different story, but I would chalk that up to Hopkins being stranded in a shitty middleweight division and Jones just not fighting the people he could have.

Toney has some solid wins and came back from obscurity to win a CW title and a HW title which he was stripped of because of the positive tests. True he has fought many softies but those fights were in between elite level fighters and he did get a couple bad decisions himself too in addition to a few gifts( hey, it happens in boxing). No one can deny the skill even if he isn't the most dedicated in training and especially with his diet. I can see how someone who is new to boxing would look at him the way you do TS, as he has not been impressive since moving to HW. You must consider that his best days were long ago and he is naturally more of a LHW. But it's not even that... other than the Barkley fight, what fights would you look at and say, skillwise, this man belongs side by side with Jones and Hopkins? People seem to put way too much stock into the Barkley fight, and ignore all the fights were he just didn't show up (and I'm talking about only fights before Roy Jones).

Ohh ok .. hehhe glad we're on the same page .... but ill always put toney above hopkins and jones Idk why you would Hopkins... Hopkins has a perfect style... I mean, obviously, he's still winning big fights at age 45. Not to mention that he seriously cleaned out middleweight, gave Trinidad and Glen Johnson their first losses, gathered all 4 ABC belts at 160, barely lost twice to Taylor, when both could have gone to him, defeated lineal king Tarver at 175, beat Wright who was P4P #3 at the time, almost beat undefeated Calzaghe and embarrassed Pavlik. Hard to find any holes in any of that.

Nah man ... speed isn't a skill , have you seen RJJ stand in front of someone and bang with them?... ill say RJJ is was more athletic than JT, in his prime. But look at RJJ now, he's gettin knocked out by Danny green, He relied on his speed. Exactly, you said it , "Jones not fighting the people he could have". Now who are you gonna respect more ?... the guy who ducked people?.. or the guy who fights all the best ? I see where the breakdown in understand was. What you call skill, I call technique. What I mean by skill is just anything that makes a boxer good and helps him to win his fights. I think Sergei Dzinziruk is far and away the best technical fighter in the sport right now, but he is definitely not the best fighter in the sport, so I don't think he is the most skilled. I hope that helps to make the distinction I'm trying to make. Toney is a technical ATG. I'm not disputing that. He just couldn't put it to work against a lot of the people he fought. I didn't say that I didn't respect Toney either... Toney has had a really good career. People just act like he was unbeatable in his prime, but... yeah, he almost/should have gotten beat so many times before he actually lost to Jones that it's just too much to turn a blind eye to.

To avoid a welterweight. :lol1:

Even though I like Strum as a boxer, its funny how he has had a belt before any of these 3 fighters in question were even relevant on the world class scene and still has the same strap he has held for a few years now but no one outside of hardcore fans even knows who he is. He kicked Oscar's ass on PPV. He's probably more of a household name than you'd think. Anyway, one thing that really makes me think less of Sturm is getting KO'd by Javier Castillejo. That's just instant career death.

I was actually having the same conversation with Warp tonight. He's revered a hell of a lot more than he should be. He has a ton of draws, splits, robberies and come from behind KOs when he was dead in the water on points in his 44-0-2 run. His best win was against Michael Nunn, when he was dead on points, and needed a KO to pull it out. It's impressive that he did, but being that far behind on points says something about his ability. This isn't to say that Nunn is a bad fighter, but... people act like prime Toney is god. The Barkley performance was really impressive, but it's a one dimensional fighter that he schooled. The draw and close win over McCallum are both very disputed. He just had too many close calls to be the second coming of god that people make him out to be. I will say that it's damn impressive that he beat Jirov after he was close to shot, and then beating Ruiz when he was shot and on steroids is also pretty impressive to me. But the TS is correct that he is overrated skill wise.

yeah true . Idk, i think its the fact that hopkins always picked on smaller guys, and JT always goes for the biggest, baddest out there, but hopkins is pretty good man. Hopkins picked on small guys out of necessity. The entire middleweight division had been cleaned out at that point. It was 154 pounders, or moving up. He wanted to get to 20 defenses, so he fought 154 pounders. To be fair, a lot of them were good 154 pounders, like Jackson, De La Hoya, Trinidad, etc.

lol "overrated skill wise" what drugs are you on ?? Solid response. The guy who is supposedly one of the best defensive counterpunchers ever got his ass beat by Michael Nunn, who threw a thousand punches, meaning he had a thousand counter opportunities. Thank god he was able to pull one lights out punch out of his ass to win it. But seriously, coming from behind and having to pray the KO comes is what I call true skill.

Castillejo is a good fighter and he did avenge the loss later but it is a knock against him. I just wish he would come over to the U.S and give it another shot, DLH was a massive name and there was alot on the line. I don't think many ppl thought this unknown German kid would have gave Oscar a boxing lesson like he did. Still he has no one but himself to blame that he is not regarded among Martinez, PWill, and Pavlik......if he even cares that he is not. Castillejo is good, but not great. The expectations that people had for Sturm after the ODLH fight were a lot more than someone who could conceivably lose to Castillejo. The avenged loss was a close decision too. I totally don't blame him for not coming to the US. He got screwed by our judges, hard. He's making a ton of cash staying in Germany, so I really don't blame him at all. The biggest problem I have with him is turning down 5 million Euros to fight Abraham. I can't see any reason to turn down that kind of money.

I'm not watching it. It will be the same old shit that he's been spinning for the last 3 24/7's. I would rather see some other fighters on 24/7 to be honest. I'd rather them revert back to Countdowns. 24/7s are too much. Sorry, but the lives of fighters are just not nearly interesting enough to have 2 hours of footage of their home life and training routines. ^It will be Mosleys 1st time. Oh god... Mosley is a pretty boring guy. Don't you remember his contribution to countdown to Cotto-Mosley? Oh HAI guys, bout to bowl a strike! I can't imagine how he is going to be entertaining in the 4th segment of 24/7.

lol .. i didnt mean to hurt your feelings ... and you obviously had no problems reading what i wrote ... So can you explain why you think james toney is "overrated skill wise" Yes. I can. I've seen Toney at his best against Barkley, but people make his whole career (before the Jones loss) to be that good. Guys who are so blessed skillwise should not have these sort of things on their resume: SD win over 1-0 Arthur Willis. Willis ended up 11-20. Draw with 24-11 Sanderline Williams. SD to Merqui Sosa, which is actually a little more forgivable, as Sosa was a decent prospect. Come from behind victory over Michael Nunn. SD to Reggie Johnson that a lot of people think is a loss. Draw with McCallum, that a lot of people think is a loss. The Tiberi fight. MD to McCallum, that people think he lost again. Listen, it's not that I think Toney is bad. I think he's actually great in his prime. But people comparing him to Hopkins and Jones is absurd in my mind. I'd take Calzaghe over Toney prime for prime to be honest (sorry daggum).

nunn is 6-3 with a long reach. its not like he's calzaghe who gets really close and leaves himself wide open to counters. Unless he was volume punching with the jab only, the openings are there, especially if Toney was using that shoulder roll lean back move that he uses. I might be talking out of my ass, since I haven't seen the fight, but it just seems like someone who is supposed to have legendary skills had way too many close calls.

i like escalante ... shame eveyones outta the division and hes still there holding his dick ... Yeah, Escalante is the real deal. He's not elite by any means, but he's definitely going to hold a world title at 122 in the near future.

A slick, defensive southpaw with a mean body attack. How is that bad for the pros? That's what I was thinking... However, I think the argument is that a guy who refuses to lead does not have a pro-friendly style.

lol.....even though im not a fan of toney he always manages to come out with some funny trash talk Lol, he took another swipe at Holmes at the end of the interview. Toney is amusing to me, but... my god, he is a really disservice to his race. The ignorant masses who think that black people are loud and ignorant get some credence granted to their argument when Toney does that shit on national TV. I watched Williams-Phillips with my best friend, who happens to be black, and he said that he was impressed by how civil Williams was... a nice, respectful, humble guy. Then I showed him what Toney did to Jim Grey in the post-fight after the Holyfield fight, and he basically said that people like Toney grants credibility to the bigoted masses.

even though he does not like holmes he should respect him since holmes is an ATG Fighter.. Yeah, I know... idk what his deal is with Holmes. It's always been pretty evident that Toney has no respect for anyone or anything that isn't himself.

well why didnt you correct your friend? Dont nobody like Jim Gray's ass. Everyone was more than happy when he did that. Jim isnt so bad now and I think its because of that. Right after that he started to change. Before that he was an ass that no one liked. Toney shouldve punched him in his fukin face. All he did was disrespect fighters and thats not even including that shit he did to Pete Rose. Its like he went out his way to be disrespectful and the way he did it made guys want to kill him. Thats why Toney did that shit. He didnt do anything to Toney but Toney didnt like how he dissed everyone else and Toney was getting at him just incase Gray even thought about coming out his face wrong. I loved that shit I remember Grey was a total cock most of the time to people. I heard Tszyu once was like, "Please do not be rude to me." Even so, there was nothing inflammatory about what Grey had done up to that point. Toney refused to answer questions, etc. Have you seen his post-fight interview after the Jirov fight on HBO? It was just as obnoxious and belligerent. It's just who Toney is.

I've seen almost all their fights and it is early to tell. Especially with them at different levels. Gamboa has progressed the farthest and seems to have good power but I'd like to see him fight more top competition first. The vote for Yudel Jhonson... I'm curious what you see in him that makes you think that he is going to go far?

I think Rig..It really depends these guys are just getting their pro careers kicked off..out of Rig, Gamboa and Lara I think Rig has the most potential. I think Gamboa will reach his pinacle and his reflexes will fade and there will be nothing to fall back on. Rig is more technically solid than Gamboa and Lara I agree on Gamboa... the reflexes go and he is done as an elite fighter. I do think Lara is pretty damn technically solid. My vote would be to one of the three people you outlined... Gamboa, Lara or Rigondeaux. I haven't seen a whole lot negative from any of them.

Way to passive.If the other guy doesn't make a mistake or let his hands go he doesn't fire his punches. He can easily be outworked at world level. It's going to take someone really fast, accurate and who has a good defense (meaning they get those hands back to guard them extremely fast) to completely shut down Rigondeaux's counterpunching game. That body shot KO on FNF probably could have put some champions both down and out. That was wicked.

Maybe,I don't think so.Lante Addy completely shut him counterpunching down by covering himself up all night.Sure he didn't fiught to win but he ain't world class either. He will be a force to be reckoned with but he is very beatable. Was that fight televised?

i heard Rigondeaux 4th opponent didnt come forward and he looked real uncomfortable fighting going forward and bringing the action... That's really interesting. It's the only opponent he didn't KO and didn't really hurt badly, or so I've read. There was a flash knockdown. He did win every round though.

YES! After a great night of boxing last night, what we need is more talk about Mayweather and Pacquiao! Actually... shut the **** up. This thread has been done before.

Okay, someone fill me in... I have always thought Lara was impressive, but I missed his last couple of fights. What happened that deflated his reputation?

:rofl: at farthest ... farthest is a word in the English language.

Gotcha. I see what you mean, but I see his counters being too sharp for him to lose via workrate. Also, he goes to the body hard and I could see him slowing most guys down. I have a higher opinion of him than most, though. I think he could win a world title tomorrow. Same here. Since all the talent has moved out of 122 for the most part (Lopez, Caballero, Marquez, Vazquez), and I know nothing about the Japanese titleholder who beat Jhonny Gonzalez, so I would really be interested to see him fight Antonio Escalante (who I think is the best established fighter left at 122).

Naazim is a hell of a trainer... currently the best in the sport in my opinion, but I think Guzman's style is custom made to be trained by Mayweather Sr. I know they used to be fighter/trainer... what ever happened with that?