Emmanuel Steward is surely a great trainer but in the case of Wladimir Klitschko he just built on the work of Fritz Szdunek, who in my opinion plays in the same league.
Eubank vs Rocky was the biggest fight in Germany??? Man, you cant be serious. Take it from someone who knows: MASKE-ROCKY 1 and 2 was like ALI-FRAZIER 1. HUGE fights.
Well, I can conform that. Though Rocchigiani vs. Michalczewski I and II were very, very big fights for obvious reasons as well.
Actually every fight involving Henry Maske after he captured the title was bigger (attention wise) than everything else.
This is part of HBO's profile of RJJ.
His only loss during the '90's came stunningly and surprisingly. Jones was victimized by a controversial late hit in a WBC light heavyweight defense against Montell Griffin on March 21, 1997 in Atlantic City. Leading on all three scorecards and already having floored Griffin twice, Jones was anxious to finish him and had him in trouble near the end of the ninth round. Two glancing shots to an exhausted, kneeling Griffin as the bell sounded disqualified Jones.
It is important to note that Roy was ahead on the cards, had dropped montell twice, and the ref never interviened on montell's behalf, insinuating that griffin was officially down. Roy then tko'd him in round 1 of the next fight.
That is one weak ass argument.
haha, that's great. uhm, just a reminder pal, where did roy jones work as a commentator? on which channel was he one of the major drawing horses? who could be interessted in portraying Roy very favourable? ...HBO, maybe?
What actually DOES surprise me is that HBO is obviously lying. That's right, they are lying! Montell Griffin was ahead on two of the three scorecards. I just checked boxrec to confirm my memory.
Scores at time of the stoppage were Judge: Barbara Perez 76-75 | Judge: Chuck Hassett 75-77 | Judge: Terry Smith 75-76 in favour of Griffin.
Makes you wonder, huh?
I can understand RJJ not going to Germany to fight DM.He could have been robbed on the scorecards if it went the distance or maybe even a bad stoppage.It just wasn't worth it imo.
Nah, that's bullshit.
Truth is that the linear title never meant shit to Roy Jones. At this stage of his career he was happy makeing money against fighters who he perceived weren't too dangerous.
He already had a big, big fanbase and people went crazy over his athletic abilities and speed. Could you imagine what would've happened if Michaelczweski had knocked him out?
Jones himself wasn't sure that he would win this fights. That's the only reason he never really wanted it. If he ever really believed that he was the better fighter he surely would've and could've made the fight happen.
Jones thought that this fight was too risky.
And Michaelczewski had no reason to leave Germany. He was the linear champion and had big, big paydays in Germany. I doubt that he could've earned more in the USA.
If Jones had been willing to fight in Germany there surely would've been an internationally well respected referee and it would've been up to the sanctioning bodies to name the official scorers.
People just like to keep the illusion of Jones being an undestructable force at LH though he never really proved it. It was up to Roy to make this fight (amongst others) happen and he didn't. That's why I find it hard to respect him as much as a lot of ppl around here think he deserves.
ur fans were disgraceful, spittin at eubank on his way 2 the ring & throwin coins at him etc. crazy. plus the racial chantin throughout the fight (that just spurred him on)
Well, he really asked for it, didn't he? The racial chanting (which were only a few idiots) was and is not excusable however and makes me feel ashamed. I'll apologize in the name of those who just don't know better.
But you have to remember that the fans in England aren't necessairly known for their aloofness either. ;)
Didn't he lose to Gonzalez? A Guy that Roy handled and beat miserably. I know styles make fights but when you beat someone so badly then that someone goes to beat another guy. He wasn't in Roy's level.
Oh my god ... just when you think that the Roy Jr. fans can't get any more redicioulos they prove you wrong.
But you really were being sarcastic there, right?
Michaelczweski was 35 when he fought Gonzalez. Very much past his prime. He announced retirement after the fight (though he came back once more). Basicly he was finished as a fighter at that stage.
Roy Jones fought Gonzalez in 2001. At that time Michaelczewski would've won the fight as well. Jones beat Gonzalez on a UD. Do you think Roy would win against a Top 10 fighter today? I very much doubt it.
Dariusz was beaten on a more or less controversial SD btw. It's not like he got knocked out and completely demolished.
If you wanna talk about shared opponents lets talk about Montell Griffin. Roy was behind on the scorecards when he got DQed in their first match. It was a strange stoppage but he may have lost the fight anyway.
Dariusz beat Griffin through KO in the fourth.
The time span this thread is about is between 1996 and 2000. That's were this bout should've taken place. And that's were Roy would've gotten exposed.
Shame it never happened!
Depends if you live in Europe or the US. I honestly don't know the public perception of Jones in Germany/Poland, etc. There was a guy from Munich posting early on in this thread. Maybe he can shed some light on it.
I know that only serious US boxing fans know who Michalcsewski is nowadays. That's less about the level of fighter Dariusz was and more about "Monkey see no evil, hear no evil." Nobody over here saw him fight on live tv, so how can he be expected to compete with the legacy of a celebrated Olympian whose fights were televised from amateur, Olympics throughout his pro career? They only heard about him from HBO commentators and from Roy Jones.
The arguement is really like I layed out before. To be the man you have to beat the man. You can't LOOK better than a champion and be able to skip over him and call yourself a champ. A champion must be beaten to be dethroned, not out-showcased. That's just my philosophy on the matter.
Well, I didn't have to write a lot because you pretty much did that for me.
After the retirement of Maske boxing fell into a hole and it hasn't really recovered until the Klitschkos and now Abraham, Valuev, Krasniqi and most importantly Felix Sturm.
Still boxing hasn't been one of the major sports in Germany for years. Even Tennis or Cycling easily surpass boxing in the coverage of newspapers and TV. It's getting better after two government-funded TV channels started televising fights (usually only Sauerland or Kohl promotions). But other than that only Eurosport televises boxing. There would hardly be a chance to follow the worldwide boxing scene if it wasn't for the internet.
Fighters that don't fight in Germany or rival with one of the German based fighters are pretty much non-existing over here. Nobody here would know who Manny Pacquiao is for example.
That's why there isn't really a public perception of Jones Jr. Only a few people know who he is. He lost his last breath of importance in our media coverage when Dariusz retired.
Throughout Dariusz' career however everybody was pretty convinced that Roy was ducking Dariusz for obvious reasons. People who knew sth. about the sport obviously had to admire Roy's speed, reflexes and natural talent but at the same time his lack of fundamental boxing skills, his showmanship and his defensive abilities hurt his image. Boxing in Germany and in America are different in some ways. For example: Usually (and especially in the lower weight classes) there's a lot more side-moveing involved in America, while in Germany it's often more straight forward. Of course German fans did favour Dariusz' style in a potential clash against Jones. However the public opinion was a lot more simple than that: one was pretty sure that Dariusz was the best fighter at LH and that there was nobody who could really threaten him.
It's important to know though that Dariusz was never really loved until the very end of his career. He was respected but never really accepted. He was this polish guy who wanted to be German: at least that's what a lot of people thought. Kohl realized this and learned from his mistakes when he promoted the Klitschkos (they were promoted as proud Ukrainians who very much appreciated Germany but never pretended to be German). For example Michaelczewskis polish accent hurt his image, while people were cheering every word from Vitali Klitschko that potentially sounded like sth. German. That's also the reason why a lot of the new German based fighters change their names (for example Felix Sturm).
Michaelczewski fought his whole career to get more than only respect from the German audience. That also made his two encounters with Rocchigiani something special.
During the end of his career when he was 46-0-0 and came close to break the famous record he became a hero at last. In the built-up to his fight against Gonzalez everybody knew that Dariusz' best years were most probably gone though a lot of people and the media tried to ignore it. That's where people started takeing a closer look at his career and came to conclusion how special he was. In Germany he is an absolute All Time Great. He can be mentioned in the same sentence with Schmeling or Maske. Something the Klitschkos have yet to achieve.
His last fight against Tiozzo was quite an event and a lot of love and respect was dished out to Dariusz for his remarkable career.
Personally I wouldn't really describe me as a the typical German boxing fan because I'm very influenced by American and worldwide boxing. But for the typical German who followed boxing back than Roy Jones was nothing more than another American who would've gotten decisively beat if he fancied comeing to Germany.
That is something Bozo fails to understand. Not fighting Roy Jones didn't hurt Michaelczewskis career in Germany ...not in the slightest of margins. It might have hurt his imagine in the USA but that didn't mean a fuck to Dariusz and why should it have? He was earning more than he could spent over here and he became a hero. America might be the mecca of boxing but that doesn't mean that other countries don't have their own (important) sanctuaries.
Most people over here know who Mike Tyson or George Foreman are (though both of them obviously have the HW bonus). Only a very, very few select ones know about Roy Jones Jr. and those don't necessairly rank him high.
Muhammed Ali became a hero in Germany and that also has to do with the fact that he fought Mildenberger.
When Lamon Brewster came over here to knock out Krasniqi on Schmelings 100th birtday he earned more respect than Roy will ever get.
you really do not think that Ali vs Frazier had a bigger impact then Eubank vs Benn ? :confused:
Of course it was. It doesn't get very much bigger than Ali vs. Frazier.
Schmeling vs. Louis I and especially II were maybe the biggest fights ever ...but for the wrong reasons.
Johnson vs. Jeffries was big as well (obviously for the wrong reasons as well) but back than boxing was not really a worldwide phenomn.
I'll take the bet that it will go to the scorecards unless Abraham gets KO'd. Want to take it big man?
Haha, well I guess I am pretty lucky that I haven't seen your proposal in time.
Actually I thought there was no way this would go beyond the first half of the fight because I didn't expect Abraham to box defensively.
Anyway, cheers for makeing the right prediction and we'll make a bet on the Abraham-Miranda fight, ok? :)
Lol its funny because before the fight all these haters were saying Kofi has a chance. After the fight when he lost UD they are that Abrahams couldnt KO him so hes not a good boxer.
Well, Kofi surely had a chance to win. I had the fight 115-113 with one round even and the one point deduction for Abraham.
And I was surprised how well Kofi took Arthurs punches. He was hurt at some stages but he never backed up.
As long as I ger Miranda by KO, I'll bet the house (I'll even bet Googler's house!)
Allright, you bet 1 billion (and several houses if you wish) on Miranda by KO or TKO and I bet 1 billion against it.
Do we have a deal? :)
he wasn't well past him prime before the first fight was he? look taylor has achieved more than abraham has thus far has he not? how can you guys compare winning a vacant belt to beating bernard hopkins? its rediculous. i didn't see the fight so i was busting balls there, but abraham has yet to face anyone remotely near the level of even a past his prime bernard hopkins. abraham is a paper title holder, he is not the real true middle champ. until he beats the man who beat the man, and that is taylor he is no champion.
Taylor is the linear champion and Abrahams belt isn't worth shit. That's right and we really don't have to discuss this.
But this doesn't mean that Taylor is the best MW out there and that Abraham has achieved shit yet.
I'm really looking forward to Taylor-Wright because that will tell everybody just how far past his prime Hopkins was when he fought Taylor (and a lot of ppl believe that he at least won one of these fights).
Abraham had a solid win over Eastman, demolished Ikeke and is yet undeafeted without any hometown decision and a good KO record.
Abraham and Taylor both still have some questions to answer. Of course Taylors win over Hopkins was more impressive than everything Abraham has to offer so far but only time will tell just how impressive it really was. :)
I bet 2 bil that this fight goes the distance. I doubt Abraham will be blowing people away like he was previously. Jantuah is a rugged fringe contender, very hard to KO. Abraham will have to get him late. I am really looking forward to seeing him in America.
I'll bet that this fight does NOT go to the scorecards.
We're set for 2 billion mate? :)
Or do you want to make it 4?
Since your the big money man and you would have taken the bet, think you can make a small donation to the working class here?
200000000.00 points donated to Pantera2000 successfully!
...for makeing the right prediciton.
You wouldn't have had 2 billion anyway, right?
It was a great fight. Both man really giving everything they had. A really fast pace. I have to admit Jantuah surprised me, he was just relentless, very durable and is a great sportsman.
I was a little bit disappointed with Abrahams stamina. He had to fight very hard to get through this. And I don't understand why Uli Wegener allowed him to basicly gift the first two rounds to Jantuah.
Abraham is usually not the kind of boxer that likes to go backwards. I think it was a major strategical mistake to allow Jantuah being the aggressor most of the time. Once Abraham didn't back down and stood his ground he usually connected and these were the moments that won him this fight.
Everybody saw Abrahams limitations as a defensive fighter today but I guess we did know this before. He isn't the kind of fighter who is comfortable fighting defensively.
I think that Abraham has lots of potential. Jantuah was a though, though contender and should get another solid payday after this fight.
Now Miranda vs. Abraham will be interesting because it'll show me how to rate Kofis performance tonight. Right now I don't know if he is really that good or if Abraham just had the wrong tactics.
I bet 2 bil that this fight goes the distance. I doubt Abraham will be blowing people away like he was previously. Jantuah is a rugged fringe contender, very hard to KO. Abraham will have to get him late. I am really looking forward to seeing him in America.
You have one more hour to confirm our 2 billion bet. Otherwise it's not on.
I bet 2 Billion that this fight goes NOT to the scorecards.
i know his nationality, he fights out of germany though. and he would get slaughtered by jermain taylor. old and dusty? he's a middleweight legend you noob. abraham is a joke over here in the states, so is sturm. Taylor is fighting Winky Wright, while your boy is fighting jantuah who got schooled by ouma. enough said. by the way, looks like another gift decision for the hometown fighter abraham......how dare you with less than 100 posts come at me like that! how dare you.
You didn't watch the fight, right? This was surley not a hometown decision. Two scorecards had to wide a margin but the right man won. I guess everybody who actually saw the fight can confirm this.
Now besides his victories over an well past his prime middleweight legend, what else has Taylor achieved?
Dude-
By the way, pay up. I took you bet!
We didn't have a bet because you didn't accept in the given time limit (that was actually meant for AsianSensation) and I never confirmed your proposal (that's basicly because I was offline).
I would've taken your bet though if I had been online long enough. That saved me 2 billion I guess. ;)
I'll bet that this fight does NOT go to the scorecards.
We're set for 2 billion mate? :)
Or do you want to make it 4?
What's up man, you don't wanna bet anymore? :)
Brahmer defeated Witter, Hatton, Sturm and Froch in his amateur career. He was sheer class, trust me.
Brähmer was actually hyped as a "Jahrhundertalent" which means sth. like "talent like him gets only born once in 100 years".
And the description might actually fight ...but as I've stated above I don't think he is mentally stable enough to capitalize on his talent. Which is a shame.
I watched the fight live and it was actually very sad. Brähmer absolutely dominated the first three rounds, knocked Veit down with a vicious left in the first round and then just kinda choked. He didn't let his hands go afterwards, besides the sporadical right-left. And even though he had the faster hands, Veit would start to beat him to the punch.
Brähmer was obviously the much more talented fighter he just didn't capitalize on it. I haven't seen him throwing one shot to the body for the last 9 rounds. It didn't even look like he was exhausted (like he was in the last two rounds against Thysse), he just couldn't execute anymore.
Veit has no real future. He is a solid fighter but nothing special. Likes to capitalize on his usual height and reach advantage and has a very limited offensive arsenal. Doesn't move good enough to be a WC fighter. And he lacks the kind of punching power that could've made him special.
This is the worst possible outcome of the fight. Brähmer will have to rebuilt his career while Veit will never be a championship fighter. There were lots of rumors about a possible Brähmer-Beyer fight. That is not going to happen now.
Brähmer is a very talented fighter. He can hit you with every shot in the book, has decent power and has an above average defense that allows him to counter-punch often. He is quick and moves very good. But maybe he lacks mentally what he has got in talent. Hopefully he'll come back and show that he had nothing more than a terrible off-night after the first three rounds.
Idiot.
Brahmer was considered to be the best talent to EVER come out of Germany, but got thrown in jail for two and a half years and hasn't looked half the fighter since.
If my memory doesn't fool me he got in jail because he initiated a car accident. When the driver of the other car threatend to call the police Brähmer knocked him out and drove away. He got sth. like 30 months for that. And he has been in conflict with the law before that. That tells you about his mental problems.
i am not racist and i hope i haven't hurt your feelings. if i have, i sincerely apologize.
I know that you're not a racist but maybe sometimes it would help to differentiate a lil more.
I watched it and it was one of the worst fights I've seen in recent times. Virchis played the bad equivalent to Valuev (yes, there actually are HWs even worse technically) and Chagaev was half a poor mans Samil Sam. Both are sparring partners and seeminly like each other. Maybe that affected the fight. However an outing like that shouldn't really be excuseable. Both of them seriously need to rethink their career plans if they keep performing like that.
Dude, you like sturm? I think he's good. Too bad he can't punch.
Yeah, I like him. He has his flaws but is improving rapdily. His power has increased over his last fights though he'll never be knockout artist. But he's got enough power for most of his opponents to respect.
Sometimes I have a lil problem with his attitude but than again I like cocky fighters.
Yeah, I guess it was really "classy" when Ali would call Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom, and Frazier would refer to Ali as Clay
or when Roy Jones raps and dances before a title defense vs. Clinton Woods, yeah that's "classy"
or when Barrera and Morales trade blows at a press conference for their rematch, "classy" stuff
how about when NIGEL BENN HIT GERALD MCCLELLAN IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER
yeah, "classy" stuff
There are two kinds of boxing fans, you know? The first group loves boxing for its excitement and brutality. Usually they love watching heavyweights and all-out brawls.
The second group loves boxing for its technical elements, for its spirit and the respect you have for someone that you fought.
Which group do you belong to?
Fighters embracing each other after the fight, fighters being gracious in defeat, fighters sacrificing a lot in order to reach their goals, Schmeling paying for Louis' funeral, Tyson stateing the he doesn't think he has been an All-Time Top 10 HW, McClellan being supported by fans and former opponents till today, that is classy.
yes and i apologize....i was actually thinking that it was getting borderline a few times and i was thinking of mentioning that it was not racist......
i've been to germany many many times and had a great time and the people were great...i hate klinsman though!
No harm taken. We're still cool. :)
He has a bad attitude? I would never guess that because I have never seen an American fighter be as respectful as STurm was after the fight to Masoe. Getting the crowd to clap.
The Mayweathers would never do that. I'm use to trash talking I guess.
Sturm is a good sportsman for sure. But he's not a warrior. I don't like seeing my favourite fighters running for 2 rounds because they already have won the fight. However I can understand it.