lets set the record straight on RJJ, who the fuck did he dodge ?

Think about it PBF34. Baldomir was just as impressive beating Judah as Floyd was beating Judah. I'm not saying Baldomir will beat Floyd, just saying in order to be the man, you've gotta beat the man. No, no he wasnt. Floyd won handily, 119-109, 116-112 and 117-111. Ill take out the 119-109 because that is undoubtly biased. Baldy won 115-113, 115-112 and 114-113. The Zab baldy fight was extremly close, while FLoyd won the fight handily. Techniclly, yes, in order to be the welterweight champion you need to beat the belt holder, but this is similar to the RJJ dariusz situation. One holds the title, and the other (in the opinion of most) is better.

It is widely know that Roy wants to retire before Donald Hoskins turns pro. LMFAO.........................

Yo, dumbfuck do you listen to yourself. You're just repeating the same crap over and over and you're spelling "linear" wrong, you fuckin dweeb. To "be the man" you have to "beat the man". Do you understand this concept? It's been around since the 1900's. In this day and age of alphabet belts, the linear champ or the ring champion is all that we should hold on to. Listen casper, you're a trolling little bitter teen who does nothing but come back to a website he's not mature enough to belong to so you can waste more of your own time. Do you even know what it is you're trying to say? Earlier in this thread this was all you had to add: Let's really think about things...even at LHW Roy Jones barely lost rounds and his stoppage of Virgil Hill was one of the best shots I've ever seen. Do you really think anybody wanted a piece of Roy? Now, because you're a trolling flip flopping little bitch, you're riding the coat tales of other people's non sense. It's got nothing to do with "needing to beat the man to be the man". It's about a meaningless non exsistant title that people are inferring when it is and isn't meaningfull now days, and a fight that didn't come off and where the blame falls. I've said the same thing over and over because it's all that needs to be said. Darius is the one who's career and legacy suffered in not taking the fight with Jones. Not vice versa. No one considered him the better Light Heavyweight in the time they shared in the division. Darius had more to gain in taking the fight on US soil, and lost out more in the long run for missing out on the fight. Now run along you little wigger and walk you ass to work.

Depends if you live in Europe or the US. I honestly don't know the public perception of Jones in Germany/Poland, etc. There was a guy from Munich posting early on in this thread. Maybe he can shed some light on it. I know that only serious US boxing fans know who Michalcsewski is nowadays. That's less about the level of fighter Dariusz was and more about "Monkey see no evil, hear no evil." Nobody over here saw him fight on live tv, so how can he be expected to compete with the legacy of a celebrated Olympian whose fights were televised from amateur, Olympics throughout his pro career? They only heard about him from HBO commentators and from Roy Jones. The arguement is really like I layed out before. To be the man you have to beat the man. You can't LOOK better than a champion and be able to skip over him and call yourself a champ. A champion must be beaten to be dethroned, not out-showcased. That's just my philosophy on the matter. Well, I didn't have to write a lot because you pretty much did that for me. After the retirement of Maske boxing fell into a hole and it hasn't really recovered until the Klitschkos and now Abraham, Valuev, Krasniqi and most importantly Felix Sturm. Still boxing hasn't been one of the major sports in Germany for years. Even Tennis or Cycling easily surpass boxing in the coverage of newspapers and TV. It's getting better after two government-funded TV channels started televising fights (usually only Sauerland or Kohl promotions). But other than that only Eurosport televises boxing. There would hardly be a chance to follow the worldwide boxing scene if it wasn't for the internet. Fighters that don't fight in Germany or rival with one of the German based fighters are pretty much non-existing over here. Nobody here would know who Manny Pacquiao is for example. That's why there isn't really a public perception of Jones Jr. Only a few people know who he is. He lost his last breath of importance in our media coverage when Dariusz retired. Throughout Dariusz' career however everybody was pretty convinced that Roy was ducking Dariusz for obvious reasons. People who knew sth. about the sport obviously had to admire Roy's speed, reflexes and natural talent but at the same time his lack of fundamental boxing skills, his showmanship and his defensive abilities hurt his image. Boxing in Germany and in America are different in some ways. For example: Usually (and especially in the lower weight classes) there's a lot more side-moveing involved in America, while in Germany it's often more straight forward. Of course German fans did favour Dariusz' style in a potential clash against Jones. However the public opinion was a lot more simple than that: one was pretty sure that Dariusz was the best fighter at LH and that there was nobody who could really threaten him. It's important to know though that Dariusz was never really loved until the very end of his career. He was respected but never really accepted. He was this polish guy who wanted to be German: at least that's what a lot of people thought. Kohl realized this and learned from his mistakes when he promoted the Klitschkos (they were promoted as proud Ukrainians who very much appreciated Germany but never pretended to be German). For example Michaelczewskis polish accent hurt his image, while people were cheering every word from Vitali Klitschko that potentially sounded like sth. German. That's also the reason why a lot of the new German based fighters change their names (for example Felix Sturm). Michaelczewski fought his whole career to get more than only respect from the German audience. That also made his two encounters with Rocchigiani something special. During the end of his career when he was 46-0-0 and came close to break the famous record he became a hero at last. In the built-up to his fight against Gonzalez everybody knew that Dariusz' best years were most probably gone though a lot of people and the media tried to ignore it. That's where people started takeing a closer look at his career and came to conclusion how special he was. In Germany he is an absolute All Time Great. He can be mentioned in the same sentence with Schmeling or Maske. Something the Klitschkos have yet to achieve. His last fight against Tiozzo was quite an event and a lot of love and respect was dished out to Dariusz for his remarkable career. Personally I wouldn't really describe me as a the typical German boxing fan because I'm very influenced by American and worldwide boxing. But for the typical German who followed boxing back than Roy Jones was nothing more than another American who would've gotten decisively beat if he fancied comeing to Germany. That is something Bozo fails to understand. Not fighting Roy Jones didn't hurt Michaelczewskis career in Germany ...not in the slightest of margins. It might have hurt his imagine in the USA but that didn't mean a fuck to Dariusz and why should it have? He was earning more than he could spent over here and he became a hero. America might be the mecca of boxing but that doesn't mean that other countries don't have their own (important) sanctuaries. Most people over here know who Mike Tyson or George Foreman are (though both of them obviously have the HW bonus). Only a very, very few select ones know about Roy Jones Jr. and those don't necessairly rank him high. Muhammed Ali became a hero in Germany and that also has to do with the fact that he fought Mildenberger. When Lamon Brewster came over here to knock out Krasniqi on Schmelings 100th birtday he earned more respect than Roy will ever get.

How so? Even by using A+B = C logic, Baldomir can beat Floyd as he did beat Judah just as decisevly. .............

Are you stupid? Here I'll summarize it for you since you're retarded as fuck. Just because fighter A beats fighter B does not mean he can beat fighter C. Got it? Im straight up telling you that Floyd would absolutly RUIN carlos baldomir.

The arguement is really like I layed out before. To be the man you have to beat the man. You can't LOOK better than a champion and be able to skip over him and call yourself a champ. A champion must be beaten to be dethroned, not out-showcased. That's just my philosophy on the matter. It's not like that at all, because the Liniar title does not hold that distinction today. Suggesting that you can pick and choose what cases the Liniar title holds weight in is an outright joke. You can talk all you want about the Liniar title, but no one in their right mind considered Darius the better Light Heavyight in the late 90's and the middle 00's. This discussion we were having pertained to who ducked who between Roy and Darius, and I've illustrated over and over again that Darius had more to gain in seeing that fight happen, and suffered more in the big picture for missing it. That's what it all boils down to.

Depends if you live in Europe or the US. I honestly don't know the public perception of Jones in Germany/Poland, etc. There was a guy from Munich posting early on in this thread. Maybe he can shed some light on it. I know that only serious US boxing fans know who Michalcsewski is nowadays. That's less about the level of fighter Dariusz was and more about "Monkey see no evil, hear no evil." Nobody over here saw him fight on live tv, so how can he be expected to compete with the legacy of a celebrated Olympian whose fights were televised from amateur, Olympics throughout his pro career? They only heard about him from HBO commentators and from Roy Jones. The arguement is really like I layed out before. To be the man you have to beat the man. You can't LOOK better than a champion and be able to skip over him and call yourself a champ. A champion must be beaten to be dethroned, not out-showcased. That's just my philosophy on the matter.

but it doesn't make it right and it won't make him a great fighter when people look back on him. Kind of like Darius having no interest in fighting Roy, and electing to sit in Germany fighting and struggling with his left overs for the rest of his career. It just goes to show that when fighters who haven't proven very much elect to take the easy rout, their career suffers in the big picture.

It's totally different anyway. Erdei beat a Gonzalez who SD'd a fading Dariusz. Dariusz won the undisputed LHW title when a unification between the 3 best LHW reigning, undefeated titlists at the time- Maske, Hill and Dariusz. A little bit different. Hehe. Yes, lineage is lineage, but Dariusz was far more impressive, which is why he was more well-known and written about. The LHW division is pretty screwed up. The best are not fighting the best. Tarver, Jones and Johnson really messed it up in the past couple of years. Nobody really needed to see Tarver-Johnson again. Or Jones-Tarver 3. And NOBODY needs to see Hopkins-Tarver. There are top LHW's out there, but Tarver has zero interest in fighting them as long as he can make MORE money by fighting WORSE fighters. That's HBO's fault, but it's really more about the state of boxing. There's only so many dates on HBO and SHO. And Tarver isn't getting any younger. So I understand what he's about, but it doesn't make it right and it won't make him a great fighter when people look back on him.

When have you ever seen me even talk about Tarver hardly? LOL I don't care about Tarver. Yes, the lineage is now with Erdei. I'd like to see Tarver fight all the top LHW's- Erdei, Adamek, Briggs, etc. Tarver is about $$ only, though. He's very open about it. I have no problem with naked ambition. Tarver doesn't want anyone to think he's the best, and he won't be thought of as a great LHW. He just wants to retire rich. Rather than reclaim his titles he is going after Hopkins coming off of 2 losses, which shows how much Tarver cares about fighting the "best." He's also said he might want Roy again. Might want Tyson. LOL Tarver isn't going to fight the best LHW's. He's going to get paid, however he can. It's no different than what Daruis, Jones, or the majority of what all top fighters do now days. They want to get paid first and formost, and have titles to wear around their wastes. In the end, that really shows that the "liniar" title had little to do with a discussion about who ducked who between Roy and Daruis. It all comes back to.... you guessed it: Originally Posted by Bozo_no no the bottom line is that Daruis' career and legacy suffered for ducking the Jones fight. Not the other way around. Common sense dictates who truly had no interest in fighting who.

When have you ever seen me even talk about Tarver hardly? LOL I don't care about Tarver. Yes, the lineage is now with Erdei. I'd like to see Tarver fight all the top LHW's- Erdei, Adamek, Briggs, etc. Tarver is about $$ only, though. He's very open about it. I have no problem with naked ambition. Tarver doesn't want anyone to think he's the best, and he won't be thought of as a great LHW. He just wants to retire rich. Rather than reclaim his titles he is going after Hopkins coming off of 2 losses, which shows how much Tarver cares about fighting the "best." He's also said he might want Roy again. Might want Tyson. LOL Tarver isn't going to fight the best LHW's. He's going to get paid, however he can.

You know what else is funny? Erdei hasn't been calling out Tarver, and Tarver hasn't even called out Erdei. No one wants to see the fight, at least not as much as we wanted Dariusz - Jones. And you know why that is? Because the Liniar title doesn't mean anything anymore. I'm glad we can get passed that, because what that does is bring it right back to who lost out on the fight between Darius and Jones not happening, and who would have gained from it. Funny how that runs constant huh?

And you know what the biggest joke about this whole spin job by Mechslave is? Why don't I hear any crying by you or anyone else about Antonio Tarver needing to fly to Germany to fight Zsolt Erdei? He is afterall the 'liniar' Light Heavyweight title holder. :rolleyes:

And by the way, Boozo. Here's a lesson on the 'linear' champion in boxing. Hill was the true linear champ before Michalczewski/Jones even fought him. Jones fought Hill only AFTER Hill had lost his title belts to undefeated Dariusz Michalczewski. Because Hill was considered the true champion at the time, Michalczewski’s defeat of Hill made him the TRUE linear champion, not Jones. The point all along has been that the "Liniar" title means very little in today's day and age. In some division it's not even clear how it's been transfered. Today you have fighters winning and splintering titles not wanting to pay sanctioning fees, an unlimited amount of variables. The entire discussion hasn't been about the Liniar title, it's been about who ducked who between Roy and Darius. As I've said several times, it comes down to who had more to gain in the fight coming off, and who was ultimatly hurt more by it not coming off. In both cases it was clearly Darius.

Who suffered the most? Not sure, actually. This spin job you've put togther here is beyond pathetic. I don't know how many times I asked you who was the best Light Heavyweight in the world when they were both at Lt Heavy and you continued to answer with "I'm not sure who would have won if they fought", but suggesting Darius' career paralleled anywhere near that of Roy's is a new low. Even for you. You don't know who's career was worse off for the fight not taking place? :rofl: This is getting comical. If Roy had gone to Germany and beaten Dariusz, then I don't think he would have bothered with Tarver after Ruiz. Where do you get a comment like this? From right out of your ass? That's got to be the stupidest thing said in months. There's no doubt that Darius' career suffered as he lived in Roy's shadow. Instead he was content to sit in his own back yard and struggle with Roy's leftovers.

Are you on crack??? Of course Floyd would be favored but he still needs to fight him. Hatton held the linear championship at 140. Baldomir holds the linear championship at 147. Floyd holds no championships. See there's basically two different schools of thought in boxing. One, which PB34 and Bozo adhere to is that if you put on nice showcases and make people believe that you CAN beat a fighter then you don't even have to beat them. You can just not fight them and everyone will still think you're better. I'm from the school of thought that follows championships. You have to win them in the ring, not by LOOKING good against someone else, but by BEATING the champion in the ring. Boxing is not a showcase sport, to me. I don't hold up a card "9.4.. no splash" when I'm watching. It's not a gymnastics performance or something. To be the best, you have to beat the best. If there's a champion in the division, then you can't fight everyone but him and look better than him to become champion. You have to beat the champion. That's why Roy was never a true champion at 175. It's that simple.

How so? Even by using A+B = C logic, Baldomir can beat Floyd as he did beat Judah just as decisevly. Are you on crack???

It's not a perfect analogy, because Baldomir is not the class of fighter that Dariusz was, but it's perfectly relevant. Baldomir is the linear champion, as Dariusz was. Floyd just beat the ex-champ Judah (who plays the part of Hill in this scenario) and is regarded as more skilled and beat Judah better than Baldomir did. But Baldomir holds the lineage. If Floyd goes on to beat Hatton, Cotto and Margarito, and then Baldomir beats them too (I understand that's not going to happen, but I'm trying to paint a picture of what happened in the LHW division back then) then wouldn't you criticize Floyd for never fighting Baldomir? The true championship stays with Baldomir, not with Floyd. Even if Floyd went on to unify them, they'd be paper belts. And the linear champion would remain the champion. That's what happened with Dariusz and Roy, essentially. Like I said, Hatton, Cotto, and Margarito are all more highly regarded than Baldomir, which wasn't the case with Dariusz and the other LHW contenders like Hall, Griffin, Hill, etc. It's not a perfect analogy, but he makes a relevant point nonetheless. Dariusz reigned for many years and Roy had many, many opportunites to fight him and didn't. And vice-versa. The difference is, one guy held the lineage and one guy did not. Its a pretty awful example, seeing as everybody already knows floyd is better then baldy.

How is that relevant? It's not a perfect analogy, because Baldomir is not the class of fighter that Dariusz was, but it's perfectly relevant. Baldomir is the linear champion, as Dariusz was. Floyd just beat the ex-champ Judah (who plays the part of Hill in this scenario) and is regarded as more skilled and beat Judah better than Baldomir did. But Baldomir holds the lineage. If Floyd goes on to beat Hatton, Cotto and Margarito, and then Baldomir beats them too (I understand that's not going to happen, but I'm trying to paint a picture of what happened in the LHW division back then) then wouldn't you criticize Floyd for never fighting Baldomir? The true championship stays with Baldomir, not with Floyd. Even if Floyd went on to unify them, they'd be paper belts. And the linear champion would remain the champion. That's what happened with Dariusz and Roy, essentially. Like I said, Hatton, Cotto, and Margarito are all more highly regarded than Baldomir, which wasn't the case with Dariusz and the other LHW contenders like Hall, Griffin, Hill, etc. It's not a perfect analogy, but he makes a relevant point nonetheless. Dariusz reigned for many years and Roy had many, many opportunites to fight him and didn't. And vice-versa. The difference is, one guy held the lineage and one guy did not.