So right next door to me is an MMA trainer. He happens to train a ranked MMA fighter in his garage. I don't follow MMA that closely but here and there all the way back to Royce Gracie's first appearance. The guy he trains is ranked and just appeared in UFC 214 (where Jon Jones won and then was caught doping again).
Anyways the kid is undefeated and is a rising star. About a month before his bout I ran into them while they where they just had finished training and we started talking. Told them I was more a boxing guy, all three (fighter, trainer and assistant) said they were too. They loved boxing. The fighter than said to my surprise something to the effect that he was doing MMA because he wasn't good enough at boxing. I was a bit stunned for him to say that, but would we be critical of someone who said they weren't a good enough football player so they decided to play football or baseball. Every sport is different. The assistant was the sparring partner. He was a pro boxer who's big achievement at least he mentioned it first was KO'ing Rafael Marquez. So maybe some of these guys aren't good enough to be boxers but some boxers are surely not good enough to be top MMA guys.
Pavlik beating GGG, LOL! Amazing how beating Jermain Taylor, who was a good fighter but never anything special takes Pavlik so high in the ratings. Of course Golovkin still has to finish off Canelo but assuming he does this isn't even close. Golovkin is more polished and Pavlik's style is perfect for Golovkin.
Pavlik didn't have an iron chin. He got hurt badly against Taylor. More important than that he could be busted up (see Martinez fight). He might not have been dropped by Golovkin but he would have been a bloody mess (think Rosario vs. Golovkin). Everyone talks about Golovkin's competition, look at Pavlik's resume, excluding Taylor it is a bunch of nothings. But I don't get into that too much because sometimes it just isn't your fault. Everyone said Hopkins beat a bunch of nobodies too. He didn't get the deserved respect until the Tito fight.
Also, you can't compare how Jacobs fought against Golovkin. They have completely different styles, Pavlik would never fight the way Jacobs did and thus Golovkin wouldn't fight against Pavlik the way he did against Jacobs. I wouldn't compare the way Martinez fought against Pavlik to demonstrate how Golovkin would beat Pavlik either. Golovkin would never and could never fight that type of fight.
Pavlik vs. Golovkin would have been a fun fight. Toe to toe action. But Golovkin's better skill, precise punching and Pavlik's fragile skin, would give Golovkin a W. Now of course I'm making a big leap of faith that Golovkin beats Canelo.
And that's why his biggest names were in a similar phase of prime, the weight differences included makes them legit wins, people need to think what the 154 Cotto and Oscar versions that Floyd beat would do to the 145 version of those fighters, they would kick the sht out of them, and they are Mannys hottest wins , there is a very big double standard in this forum when it comes to giving Floyd his dues, people seem to think Floyd is always prime, he dominated his era and fought and beat the top guys his resume will shine in the real history books, in places like here its just waffle.
I think that is a fair comment that people always assume Floyd was prime. To Floyd's credit he was in tremedous shape throughout his career where as other fighters had shorter spans of prime or near prime because they didn't take care of themselves the same way. For example I don't think DLH was close to prime when he fought either Floyd or Pac. But I don't believe a prime DLH and a prime Floyd is a blowout.
I would favor Floyd in probably every fight but I do think that if he had faced all of these guys in their prime or near prime there's a probability that he loses at least one fight maybe two. That's what happens when prime fighters face off. It doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other overall. Sometimes it takes multiple fights to settle it. You have a bit of an off night, maybe you aren't feeling great and one slip up and you got an L. It happened to just about every fighter. I don't believe Floyd has no L's on his record just because he is great but that after 2003 the high quality of guys he faced who were in their prime is slim.
SSM vs FMJ when they were at 135 is a great fight.
I agree. I would take Floyd but prime Shane is no easy fight for Floyd. He's in a dog fight. If Floyd is off his game he can lose. That's what people don't understand, when you are off against a prime fighter or they are just on fire you can lose.
I consider Floyd easily in the top 20 boxers ever. I don't have an exact list but he might be even in the top 10. My biggest knock and it isn't his fault is I don't think he has many prime fighters on his resume. Lots of great names but few of those guys were prime and some of them significantly far from prime. You might be better overall than another guy but for one fight you might lose.
I think that was the case with Ward. I think he lost against Kov the first fight but in the 2nd fight he won. Kov was prime and even though he wasn't as good IMO overall for one fight he did enough to pull out a W (as I saw it). We saw it with Leonard vs. Duran. You can argue that Floyd might have experienced it with Castillo if you thought JLC won. Castillo was legit right in his prime period when he fought Floyd. So yes a prime Mosley in a one fight scenario might have been able to get the W.
Every time Alvarez throws a punch, hit or miss, weak or strong, the partisan crowd goes wild. Meanwhile any good work by his opponent is met with deafening silence.Common sense tells you that has to affect both the ref and the judges and probably means 2 or 3 undeserved rounds for Alvarez every fight.
It is pretty much common sense. One of the reason all home teams have a built in advantage. That said good judges should be able to score a fight without being swayed.
I had the Jacbos-Canelo fight 116-112 for Canelo. I thought he had more decisive rounds. It was hard to say Jacobs won any round decisively.
I love Golovkin, but I also believe Canelo stock has gone way up since their last meeting...grown quite a bit in the ring.
His defense has been superb.
Has been landing good combinations.
And if he can capitalize with his uppercuts, who knows what might happen.
Golovkin has been inactive ever since their last bout, and the quality of his upcoming opponent is questionable if he's planning on taking Canelo after that, he's not getting younger either.
Can he learn new things with Banks?
Can he come up with a more effective strategy against Canelo?
Can he capitalize with his effective jab instead of looking to land a big right hand?
Sure why not...but, will it make a difference with an improved version of the guy who took the close decision last time?
What do you guys think?
:beerchug:
Yes I could see Canelo beating Golovkin convincingly (for once). I could see him winning 8 rounds. That said all he has to do is legit win 6 maybe even 5 and he'd get the decision. Canelo is a better fighter now than he was two years ago. Golovkin is likely not and a solid argument can be made he was off prime for the first fight.
I would favor Canelo strongly in a third fight. If I'm Canelo I think this sets up perfectly for him. But he also can make Golovkin wait more time as it appears Golovkin is now in just cash out mode. So maybe he'll be willing to wait until 2020 if that is what Canelo wants.
Golovkin's only chance IMO at this point, and it is slim, is to take the approach that it is a 10 round fight and go balls to walls from no later than round three. Either come home victorious or come home on your shield. I'm not sure he has that mentality.
I think either way, there will be people saying that either guy won or lost, just like the Jacobs fight, I thought Canelo won that pretty easy with a 7-5 or 8-4 scorecard, but people are still saying that Jacobs got robbed, including Jacobs himself saying he thought he did enough to win. The sport is getting to be that if you don't KO him, you were handed a gift if it was close.
Canelo clearly won the Jacobs fight. In no stretch of the imagination was that a gift. This website is filled with a bunch of clowns with agendas. It doesn't represent most boxing fans.
Jacobs had two shots and he just didn't do enough. I thought both fights were close, though Golovkin fight was closer but in the end the right guys won.
I agree, I mean when the crowd reacts, it has to affect the judges thoughts on the rounds, I do not think Canelo needed that against Jacobs, but I do think it helped him against GGG on their first fight.
What helped him in the first fight more than the crowd was a moron of judge (or a corrupt one, or both).
LOL let's be real though, my initial reply triggered you little diego. I wonder what you really want to say to me ;)
You and I BOTH know. WE both know. :grouphug:
(You're not included in that grouphug, I just use that emoji because it looks cool. Everyone else is in the grouphug except for you. You get back to scrubbing the toilet and I'll pay you whatever I feel like paying you)
I said exactly what I wanted. You’re a clown. You started three threads bashing Golovkin. This one talking about you not respecting him, like anyone gives a rip. Anybody obsessing about any fighter is almost always a loser.
You can’t use your EBT card to pay for cleaning toilets kid. I found more change in my sofa than you have to your name. Now just stop, we (you and I) know you got nothing that demonstrates success in your life. You can’t give respect because you don’t even respect yourself. And thanks for leaving me out of your group hug Barney.
I don't think that was the case here. Leonard says in his book he and Mike Trainer were more than open to a rematch that would have earned both fighters another $10 million +.
If you watch interviews with Ray, he said he found it very easy to hit Hagler. Why would he duck a fighter he already beat? Especially for that type of money?
Hagler was shot psychologically after the first fight. It's common knowledge.
Of course that is what Leonard said. They approached Haglar a year later when he was already retired.
I think Leonard so ever slightly won. At least the last time I watched it. I also think he stole rounds and in a rematch with Haglar knowing his plan that would have been more difficult.
Have you ever watched Seinfeld and the race? If you did that would be my explanation. Leonard figured out a plan and IMo did just enough to win, in lots of people’s minds he didn’t, but that plan probably wouldn’t have worked again.
BTW I consider Leonard top 5 ATG. I loved watching Haglar. I prefer Haglar but I think he got nipped that night. Leonard did just enough.
Valero's wife gave him a serious, unbearable headache on that fateful day so he unleashed hell on her. When a woman pushes a man to the limit, challenges his manhood & authority...that's when ***** gets real nasty.
It must have been really painful for Valero's pride as a man...you know...taking so much ***** from a woman he fed everyday.
Rest In Peace, El Inca.
Your name looked familiar . . . what an awful person you must be. A total loser in life.
You're upset coz' I call your certified lover JUANITA.
Glad you admit your mad because you know I got you pegged.
Nah I just called you out for being a dbag.
Told Ya, hoe !! You can't live without me. You're just a hoe trapped in a girly man's body. You try to hide that fact with a false bravado but that HOE in you is dying to get out. A hoe is a hoe and you know it's true, hoe.
Now that you've come out of the closet, the next thing you gotta do is admit that you're a sore loser like JUANITA.
Again you can’t think of anything original. You just copy my disses. LOL!
I hope you and Juan are happy. . . oops I mean Juanita. Wink wink. I won’t out you.
Because there were bigger things ahead. Like Hatton, Cotto, Oscar, mosley and margarito fights. Pac knows its tough to deal with Marquez. Everything just goes wrong against Marquez he’s just his kryptonite stylewise and mentally as well. The only thing that kept it close was Pac’s physical gifts, and that’s no shot at pac.
At least he had the balls to take the fight over and over again.
Had he given him immediate rematches we would have seen the same results and his career wouldn’t have taken off like it did.
No need to compare to other fighters to figure this one out.
Its not like Pac has less balls than them.
Pac did offer Marquez and immediate rematch after the first fight. But Marquez’s pride got in the way.
I won’t speak to the gap between the other fights because I don’t know what happened.
Hey, I'm a marquez fan really. I always liked watching him, similar to Salvador Sanchez imo with the great counter-punching. I like Pac too of course. I don't look at it as black and white "Gotta love one and hate the other" kind of thing. I understand what you're saying but I made my point to the OP who seems to be of the opinion that Pac was afraid of Marquez and I don't see how he can be when he gave him three rematches. By the same token, I wasn't saying Marquez was scared but I didn't think it was very cool to deny Pac a fifth fight and if it was a faux offer, I get it but this is why I generally don't go into debates about who said what or who wanted who. So many different people say so many different things. I mean, I never know who to trust on stuff like this.
Either way, good breakdown and it sounds like you got to meet a legend which is awesome!
Great post!
You ARE an idiot for not knowing the history of the rivalry between Manny & Juanita.
You’re a loser. Call him Juanita says everything one needs to know about you. Move along toad.
If pac wanted the fight why couldn't he just accept the terms in 2010?
Why didn't they want to use USADA in 2011 too?
Why did they make up excuses for 2012 as well??
All the excuses came from one side hahahaha:usa:
You refer to him as TBE. LOL! You’ll buy anything Floyd is selling you. Even when he is conning you that he really wanted the fight and it was all Pac who didn’t make it happen. But to each their own.
I mean bob arum literally said and did the exact things i repeated in this thread so yes they are FACTS
:lol1:
Find me the quotes where Arum says Pac ducked Mayweather.
I’ll wait for all the article links detailing how Pac ducked Floyd.
The evidence proves that one side, #48/Bob Arum, were the ones with the endless amount of excuses.
See I argue using actual facts, you guys argue using assumptions. That is the difference between me and you
:usa:
You think they are “facts”.
Leonard's team was open to the idea. Hagler turned it down, feeling he was robbed in the first fight.
Haglar wanted an immediate rematch. When that didn’t happen he retired.
Dude, here's the thing. Trav and ChrisJS came at me with knowledge and respect in their posts. You come at me laughing and mocking my stance. You're acting very crudely toward me for no reason. I'm no die hard Pac fan. Like I said in another post, I'm a fan of both. This kind of behavior gets all kinds of beefs going and keeps them rolling on here non-stop with no substance to them at all.
Just a little advice. Come at me with respect next time or don't bother.
MuffinTop is a Twat. DOnt expect an improvement.
Everything I said is a fact and can PROVE it
Ducquiao ducked because of drug testing. Then ducked again because he said no to USADA, the ducked again because of a "cut", the ducked again because of wanting to build a stadium.
The list goes on and on. Dcuquiao has a history my friend :usa:
So did Floyd fear Pac ever?
If you think I'm boring then how come you keep coming back to me like a desperate hoe? I don't give a damn about how you scored their first 3 encounters or if Juanita was juiced or not for fight #4.
You ain't the only one around here who's fair. I also happen to be a fair person. I call a spade a spade. Got it, dip*****? Oh, so now you wanna act like you know me personally? What have you accomplished in your worthless life, loser? I'm curious? Juanita must be feeling sorry for you.
Once I remembered who you were and your Valero post that was enough. You are a low life. I smelled you when you posted about "Juanita". Sure enough a brief search brought that tool bag post about Valero. You and I both know you are an epic loser in life. I'm done with you, don't worry.
You're just a mad, Juanita's certified lover. I knew it from the get go. You're on your back now JUANITA STYLE. The definition of a canvass kisser.
Don't be shy to express your g4y little feelings toward Juanita.
You have really been fantasizing about this stuff . . . I'd tell you to go take a cold shower but it looks like you already made a mess of yourself. LOL