Who is the greatest Junior Welterwieght ever??

whoever said cervantes sucks at life. Really? Why would that be? Do you know who 'Kid Pambele' is? If you don't know or haven't checked him out I really don't think you should be commenting on something you know nothing about. Edit: I give you a brief synopsis of Kid Pambele.He lost his first title shot to the great Niccolino Locche. He then won the title of Alfonso Frazer defending it eight times fighting some great fighters such as Esteban De Jesus, Hector Thompson, Carlos Gimenez. He then lost it against Wilfred Benitez in Bentiez' great first title win when only seventeen. After that loss he regained the title from Gimenez who had won it and defended it another seven times before fighting Pryor in about his 100th bout in a losing effort in which he knocked down Pryor in the first. After that he had a couple more good wins before losing to Danny Sanchez and retiring. Antonio Cervantes was a great fighter and to say he doesn't deserve a mention as being in the top fighters ever at 140 pounds in ignorant and stupid. Anyone who knows him would agree that he is up there with the best.

Tszyu was Champion for so long partly because he was so inactive. He did fight a lot of good fighters and early on too. Him not fighting Philips imo, is a huge dent in his record. Tszyu had a lot of time to fight Philips and never did, even when Philips lost his title he still got back in the game and considered a contender. And i aggree that Randell was a better fighter then Philips. Randell was Champion and defended his title more times then Philips. If it wasn't for the Coggi incidents he would have defended more times. In Chavez prime, he beats Pryor and Tszyu. I thought Arguello was getting to Pryor and Arguello just called it a night second time. I've seen Pryor go down by lesser opponets then Chavez, so i have to say Chavez would put Pryor down a few times in a fight. Whats funny about Tszyu fighting an old man in Chavez is that when Chavez attacked he landed and forced Tszyu back a prime Chavez would have mauled Tszyu. Tszyu is the dirtiest fighter at 140, but looking at his record no doubt he is a great fighter. I think you guys might be thinking that I'm saying that Tszyu is the best in this division ever. That is certainly not the case at all. I don't believe he is even close to being the best. He could be argued for the top three but not nearly the best. I put Locche as the best at 140 ever. Cervantes next maybe then Pryor, Chavez, Whitaker, Tszyu etc. Randall was better than Phillips but he was still a shit fighter. He won the belt from Chavez then defended it only about five times.One was a loss to Chavez then the three fights with Coggi and maybe one other fight. He lost a lot of fights. He really wasn't that good. Are you serious about the Tszyu/Chavez fight? You think Chavez backed Tszyu up and made it a difficult fight? From what I remember Tszyu had not the slightest bit of trouble with him and knocked him down for only the second time and TKO'ed him the fifth I think. It was an easy fight for him and I really do believe that the same thing would have happened any time after the Whitaker fight but not before. Anyway, again, what I'm saying is that it's showing bias and double standards if you say one fighter is shit for losing a fight or quitting or even getting knocked down but still win the fight when you say that another fighter who did the same thing is not shit. That is what I'm trying to get across. I'm not saying Chavez is not a good fighter. He's great...truly great, better then Tszyu etc etc. But, I don't like it when someone says that Chavez is the best but Tszyu is shit then use his quitting against Hatton and his loss to a journey man as the reason. The only reason I'm using Chavez' name is because it's in this thread and he quit the same as Tszyu. If Tszyu had not come back after his loss to rule the division and fight everyone in it for ten years then he would be shit. But, like all true champions he came back from a loss to dominate and that to me is the sign of what makes a true champion.

I have seen a lot of good names thrown around here, I will add Duilio Loi (RIP) because I did not see him mentioned. I will point out that many great lightweights and welterweights could have shined in this division (Duran, Whitaker, Mayweather in recent times), but basically bypassed it.

P4P I would say Pryor, but on accomplishments I would say Chavez. But since I'm bias towards Pryor I would say he's the best JWW of all time, and the only reason why he didn't have that many big (I think his only bigs fights were against Cervantes and Arguello) fights is because A LOT of fighters were ducking him. Oh and Pryor would beat Chavez.

Tszyu was Champion for so long partly because he was so inactive. He did fight a lot of good fighters and early on too. Him not fighting Philips imo, is a huge dent in his record. Tszyu had a lot of time to fight Philips and never did, even when Philips lost his title he still got back in the game and considered a contender. And i aggree that Randell was a better fighter then Philips. Randell was Champion and defended his title more times then Philips. If it wasn't for the Coggi incidents he would have defended more times. In Chavez prime, he beats Pryor and Tszyu. I thought Arguello was getting to Pryor and Arguello just called it a night second time. I've seen Pryor go down by lesser opponets then Chavez, so i have to say Chavez would put Pryor down a few times in a fight. Whats funny about Tszyu fighting an old man in Chavez is that when Chavez attacked he landed and forced Tszyu back a prime Chavez would have mauled Tszyu. Tszyu is the dirtiest fighter at 140, but looking at his record no doubt he is a great fighter. I forgot to add, the fact that Tszyu fought two of Chavez former opponets, i mean old opponts. And its a fact that Chavez mauled these opponets while Tszyu went 12 with Mayweather and i think 9-10 rounds v. a puerto rican fighter i forget his name. I never seen the Tszyu v. Laporte fight but you may aggree that Laporte was past his best.

I know. I was just making a point that if you want to say no great fighter can lose to a journeyman or quit then don't pretend it hasn't happened to a lot of fighters and fighters that he was talking about. I was being sarcastic. Go back and read the guys post that I was responding to. Unless you, for some reason, agree with him I personally think that it's a ridiculous point of view especially when he talks about Tszyu quitting and how that makes him a pussy or whatever he thinks when Chavez has quit twice (also when he was in less trouble, earlier in the fight and he could still talk). Really, don't give me that about Randall. He was much the same as Phillips. A half decent fighter that got lucky and thats it. He never really beat anyone else except for Edwin Rosario at the end of his career after losing to him anyway! He had twenty losses for gods sake! Thats nearly 40% of his whole record!!! Not a journeyman? Sorry, he was the greatest champion of the last decade! Hey man, if you're up on the scorecards you're winning the fight. Again, by the standard he used you could also say Whitaker was getting owned because he got knocked down more than once! It happened to Tszyu to, but Hurtado was certainly not winning the fight. Does that make Whitaker shit? Sorry Blacky, not trying to sound like a prick. I just hate the double standards people use. For one fighter they will make excuses for his loss or quitting or whatever but then for another guy they will say it makes him a shit fighter and not worthy. Ya know? Duran lost around his twentieth fight but came back and ruled for a decade. Tszyu lost and came back and ruled for a decade. Not comparing the two at all in any way just saying it happens (although Duran got revenge whereas Tszyu didn't. Although by the time he came back Phillips was not worth fighting and has never been since). :biggthump Tszyu was Champion for so long partly because he was so inactive. He did fight a lot of good fighters and early on too. Him not fighting Philips imo, is a huge dent in his record. Tszyu had a lot of time to fight Philips and never did, even when Philips lost his title he still got back in the game and considered a contender. And i aggree that Randell was a better fighter then Philips. Randell was Champion and defended his title more times then Philips. If it wasn't for the Coggi incidents he would have defended more times. In Chavez prime, he beats Pryor and Tszyu. I thought Arguello was getting to Pryor and Arguello just called it a night second time. I've seen Pryor go down by lesser opponets then Chavez, so i have to say Chavez would put Pryor down a few times in a fight. Whats funny about Tszyu fighting an old man in Chavez is that when Chavez attacked he landed and forced Tszyu back a prime Chavez would have mauled Tszyu. Tszyu is the dirtiest fighter at 140, but looking at his record no doubt he is a great fighter.

Whitaker wasnt getting owned at all, apart from the rounds with the knockdowns he won basically every round. There is no way in hell Frankie Randall is a 'journeyman'. And those fights with him came after Chavez's prime. The difference between Tszyu's loss to Phillips and Chavez's loss to Randall is this...Chavez was at the tailend of his career. before that fight and after, he steadily got worse and worse. his training methods were to spar 7 days a week 8 rounds a day or something ridiculous, if that doesnt wear down your career nothing will. While Kostya's loss to Phillips was almost in the exact middle of his career, you cant say he was 'past his prime', and he also was TKOed. I dont know about you, but I consider Randall a better fighter than Phillips. I give a ton of credit to both Kostya and Pryor, both fantastic fighters, but Chavez had the best run at 140lbs. and only people that dont know wat theyre talking about say he had a 'padded record'. I dont look at the number of wins and losses, I look at the competition theyve beaten. I know. I was just making a point that if you want to say no great fighter can lose to a journeyman or quit then don't pretend it hasn't happened to a lot of fighters and fighters that he was talking about. I was being sarcastic. Go back and read the guys post that I was responding to. Unless you, for some reason, agree with him I personally think that it's a ridiculous point of view especially when he talks about Tszyu quitting and how that makes him a pussy or whatever he thinks when Chavez has quit twice (also when he was in less trouble, earlier in the fight and he could still talk). Really, don't give me that about Randall. He was much the same as Phillips. A half decent fighter that got lucky and thats it. He never really beat anyone else except for Edwin Rosario at the end of his career after losing to him anyway! He had twenty losses for gods sake! Thats nearly 40% of his whole record!!! Not a journeyman? Sorry, he was the greatest champion of the last decade! Hey man, if you're up on the scorecards you're winning the fight. Again, by the standard he used you could also say Whitaker was getting owned because he got knocked down more than once! It happened to Tszyu to, but Hurtado was certainly not winning the fight. Does that make Whitaker shit? Sorry Blacky, not trying to sound like a prick. I just hate the double standards people use. For one fighter they will make excuses for his loss or quitting or whatever but then for another guy they will say it makes him a shit fighter and not worthy. Ya know? Duran lost around his twentieth fight but came back and ruled for a decade. Tszyu lost and came back and ruled for a decade. Not comparing the two at all in any way just saying it happens (although Duran got revenge whereas Tszyu didn't. Although by the time he came back Phillips was not worth fighting and has never been since). :biggthump

tszyu imo dog

Well since it's not me yet. I say Ricky Hatton. thanks for the laugh..

Aaron "The Hawk" Pryor! No question

Well since it's not me yet. I say Ricky Hatton.

It's Hawk Time! Aaron Pryor only has one defeat in his career and that was when he was way past him prime. He has amazing skills too.

best light welter... umm i say its between chavez and pryor

Thats it? I didn't even realise we were talking about lightweight or welterweight? So you don't think Chavez' best work was in his earlier division and how do you figure Chavez beats Pryor? I mean Pryor was never really even beaten, well, at least until he was a crack riddled protoplasmic blob of a fighter. He was never even really close to being beaten in his proper career whereas Chavez had many close encounters and some very suspect ones. Just wondering on what you base your conclusions? So just because Tszyu was beaten by Phillips makes him shit? Also maybe you should go back and watch the Hurtado fight again because apart from the flash knockdowns the whole fight was ruled by Tszyu. This kind of thinking is ridiculous. With that you could also say that Whitaker was shit because Hurtado was owning him until Whitaker TKO'd him as well. Chavez was shit because Taylor really won their fight but the ref screwed him and Whitaker owned him as did Randall who was also a journeyman. What? Sorry, but things just don't work like that. Oh, and I forgot, the guy you said was the best ever Jr Welter also quit. Twice!!! That makes him really, really shit. God, I hate these double standards :nonono: Whitaker wasnt getting owned at all, apart from the rounds with the knockdowns he won basically every round. There is no way in hell Frankie Randall is a 'journeyman'. And those fights with him came after Chavez's prime. The difference between Tszyu's loss to Phillips and Chavez's loss to Randall is this...Chavez was at the tailend of his career. before that fight and after, he steadily got worse and worse. his training methods were to spar 7 days a week 8 rounds a day or something ridiculous, if that doesnt wear down your career nothing will. While Kostya's loss to Phillips was almost in the exact middle of his career, you cant say he was 'past his prime', and he also was TKOed. I dont know about you, but I consider Randall a better fighter than Phillips. I give a ton of credit to both Kostya and Pryor, both fantastic fighters, but Chavez had the best run at 140lbs. and only people that dont know wat theyre talking about say he had a 'padded record'. I dont look at the number of wins and losses, I look at the competition theyve beaten.

In this era lightweight- duran juniorwelterweight-chavez welterweight- whitaker tszyu got knocked out by a journeyman in vince phillips i think that he was overrated. don't get me wrong he was a good fighter but i just don't think that he was a great one.hurtado almost had tszyu hatton who's also is overrated beat him and made him quit i think that chavez and pryor are the best i think that chavez beats pryor in a war and thats why i take chavez as the best juniorwelterweight ever p4p. Thats it? I didn't even realise we were talking about lightweight or welterweight? So you don't think Chavez' best work was in his earlier division and how do you figure Chavez beats Pryor? I mean Pryor was never really even beaten, well, at least until he was a crack riddled protoplasmic blob of a fighter. He was never even really close to being beaten in his proper career whereas Chavez had many close encounters and some very suspect ones. Just wondering on what you base your conclusions? So just because Tszyu was beaten by Phillips makes him shit? Also maybe you should go back and watch the Hurtado fight again because apart from the flash knockdowns the whole fight was ruled by Tszyu. This kind of thinking is ridiculous. With that you could also say that Whitaker was shit because Hurtado was owning him until Whitaker TKO'd him as well. Chavez was shit because Taylor really won their fight but the ref screwed him and Whitaker owned him as did Randall who was also a journeyman. What? Sorry, but things just don't work like that. Oh, and I forgot, the guy you said was the best ever Jr Welter also quit. Twice!!! That makes him really, really shit. God, I hate these double standards :nonono:

Pryor or Cervantes

In this era lightweight- duran juniorwelterweight-chavez welterweight- whitaker tszyu got knocked out by a journeyman in vince phillips i think that he was overrated. don't get me wrong he was a good fighter but i just don't think that he was a great one.hurtado almost had tszyu hatton who's also is overrated beat him and made him quit i think that chavez and pryor are the best i think that chavez beats pryor in a war and thats why i take chavez as the best juniorwelterweight ever p4p.

between Pryor and Tszyu.

Pryor then Chavez in his PRIME for me. Tszyu is a solid 3rd though.

It is true that both Marquez brothers lost their pro debuts... However, the usual rule is that a professional prospect that has a polished amatuer background is not supposed to lose in his first twenty fights. Tszyu was a prospect with the amatuer background, so it is true that he wasn't supposed to lose. He did come back and prove that he was a great fighter though through his career. But don't be so quick to write a fighter off because they lost early in their career. Usually those are the diamonds in the rough that no one would have ever predicted would make it that high... Pacquiao, Margarito, Mayorga, etc.