Comments Thread For: Nunes: Ronda Rousey Was Overrated, UFC Made Her Like That!

[Anthony342]

Fedor is great, just not the greatest of all time. His career was mostly freak shows with a some great wins like Arlovski and others. But when he fights a man who was fighting the same time as him in Pride, who is much older, who is also a career middleweight and has been in much more wars (damage accumulation). Then gets KTFO by said person. He is not goat. If Fedor was out of prime, shot, whatever. Then Henderson was out of the game 10 years prior.

Ronda is more like Gracie. Goat? No. Top 5 ever? Nah. Respectable? Sure.

So who do you consider the GOAT? Anderson Silva? GSP?

[Mzembe]

You say the notion that she was unprepared is ridiculous.

You cannot compare Mayorga to Rousey. And while I am saying we are looking at a shell of the Ronda that reigned supreme, I am not saying she is immutable to being beat. I happen to feel as though Holmes and Nunns are very different fighters and that while Rousey would always have problems with Holly, a prime Ronda would beat Nunnes. Holmes has the mobility, strength and wireyness that makes her hard to clinch...knowing how to use her boxing with that mobility presents a real problem for Ronda...

I am not making a valued judgement on the mettle of Roussey. What she can do under adverse conditions, getting up and shaking it off, etc...I am making a judgement about her ability when she was in top form. I would say it is a bit premature to call Nunnes invincible lol. Nunnes is very beatable imo. I also do feel that a psychologically healthy Rousey would beat Nunnes.

Maybe Rousey is so lousy now that she had a weakness all the time...maybe her coach is a genius who is misunderstood, yada yada...My point is that at the top of her game she was very good and certainly capable imo of beating nunnes, though not Holmes imo. She also was dominant in a way that maybe one or two other woman MMA fighters have ever been dominant.

My bone of contention is really calling Ronda a hype job after all she accomplished. You present examples which is a good thing to do. I would give you Roy Jones as an example. Jones was caught with flaws, it does not mean his abilities are all erased. Same goes for Roussey. Did Jones always have those flaws? debatable. But we know what he was able to do and the same goes for Ronda imo.

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I think you misunderstood my analysis of Judo or maybe I just discarded all that based on Rousey. I do apologize for that and let me re-state my stance. I've been practicing Karate since I was 15 years old and because it's the first martial arts I started with I'm very loyal to it.
I do agree with you in your sentiments regarding Judo. What I do have a different opinion is Rousey's expertise in Judo does not make her a great fighter. Remember Judo is basically using your opponents strength and offense against herself/himself.

So basically, Rousey had to have some sort of counter for aggressive fighters especially after her loss to Holmes. I don't think your notion that she wasn't prepared or her coach failed her is true. I just think Rousey has no response against that kind of aggression. Take a look at Floyd Mayweather against Maidana. Maidana made it an all out war and had Floyd in trouble in spots but what makes Floyd great is that he knows how to adjust. He did exactly that against Judah, Castillo and even Cotto. Also, Floyd has always had problems against Southpaws but he's managed to overcome adversity and win.

So when you say Rousey was unprepared then you are making your case for me. How could she be unprepared. She has a whole team of pros behind her. And there is the fact that she needed to come back strong to show that the Holmes fight was just a bad night. She needed to look exceptionally good. She owed to herself, her team and to her fans. When people said Castillo or Maidana beat Floyd the first time, Floyd made sure he gave them rematches and then came back, adjusted and made it look easy. That's what defines a great fighter.

Lastly, I think we are almost at a common ground especially when using Roy Jones as an example. I believe Roy lost his mental edge after that spectacular KO by Tarver. He just never recovered from it and was never the same. Roy is by far a much better boxer than Tarver could ever dream to be but Tarver's got Roy's number and would beat Roy if they fought now or in their prime. But the bigger and by far the major difference between Roy and Ronda is that Roy cleaned out the 175 division after winning titles at 154 and 168 against hall of fame fighters. To me Rousey is almost like Julio Ceasar Chavez Jr who when he stepped up to fight good fighters got his ass handed to him despite his "stellar" record. Chavez is NEVER going to be like his father especially fighting in a division that is stacked with guys like GGG or even Canelo (another guy that needs to step up his level of competition).

I do like your rhyming skills though - Rousey is lousy ... LOL

[billeau2]

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I think you misunderstood my analysis of Judo or maybe I just discarded all that based on Rousey. I do apologize for that and let me re-state my stance. I've been practicing Karate since I was 15 years old and because it's the first martial arts I started with I'm very loyal to it.
I do agree with you in your sentiments regarding Judo. What I do have a different opinion is Rousey's expertise in Judo does not make her a great fighter. Remember Judo is basically using your opponents strength and offense against herself/himself.

So basically, Rousey had to have some sort of counter for aggressive fighters especially after her loss to Holmes. I don't think your notion that she wasn't prepared or her coach failed her is true. I just think Rousey has no response against that kind of aggression. Take a look at Floyd Mayweather against Maidana. Maidana made it an all out war and had Floyd in trouble in spots but what makes Floyd great is that he knows how to adjust. He did exactly that against Judah, Castillo and even Cotto. Also, Floyd has always had problems against Southpaws but he's managed to overcome adversity and win.

So when you say Rousey was unprepared then you are making your case for me. How could she be unprepared. She has a whole team of pros behind her. And there is the fact that she needed to come back strong to show that the Holmes fight was just a bad night. She needed to look exceptionally good. She owed to herself, her team and to her fans. When people said Castillo or Maidana beat Floyd the first time, Floyd made sure he gave them rematches and then came back, adjusted and made it look easy. That's what defines a great fighter.

Lastly, I think we are almost at a common ground especially when using Roy Jones as an example. I believe Roy lost his mental edge after that spectacular KO by Tarver. He just never recovered from it and was never the same. Roy is by far a much better boxer than Tarver could ever dream to be but Tarver's got Roy's number and would beat Roy if they fought now or in their prime. But the bigger and by far the major difference between Roy and Ronda is that Roy cleaned out the 175 division after winning titles at 154 and 168 against hall of fame fighters. To me Rousey is almost like Julio Ceasar Chavez Jr who when he stepped up to fight good fighters got his ass handed to him despite his "stellar" record. Chavez is NEVER going to be like his father especially fighting in a division that is stacked with guys like GGG or even Canelo (another guy that needs to step up his level of competition).

I do like your rhyming skills though - Rousey is lousy ... LOL

Its a fact her coach is crap. Many people including her mother an olmpic gold medalist in Judo are perplexed why she allowed herself to be coached by such an obvious idiot as her coach.

See heres the thing...Its not really about Judo or any martial art once you become an MMA athlete. Its about using your skill base to win fights. The Judo skill simply shows the ability to technically be proficient in a manner that 99.9% of the population never will be...and that same statement would apply in my opinion, to the JKA points champion who wins his division.

It also might suprise some but I actually agree with you about being a great Judo player not necessarily being a great fighter. I also studied karate many years (Okinawan Te Sho Ran Ryu ha Te) and became a great fighter to many...Mainly? well, our club was a strictly fighting club so I had no choice! I was actually in my estimation hardly a fighter, never liked to do it, prefer teaching...but, because we were fighters I learned (somewhat reluctantly at times) to either be kicked out the window (long story) or fight back.

here is what I am getting at: The woman's division is an inconsistant mess, with few consistant performers and a lot of part time fighters and under these conditions Ronda was dominant in her time at champ. Is she a fighter? Well the Judo made her a technician and to the extent that she set the judo up with guts and intent, she was good enough to reign as a champion over some women who were great fighters (Meisha Tate Zingano for example) and some who were not so good. Using the term "great" relatively here.

Holme was not an aggressive fighter, she was a strong, mobile fighter, seasoned with some boxing experience, who set her self up to win the fight utilizing her mobility and punching primarily. As far as Ronda coming back...you don't usually come back from what Holme did. Very few are that determined, psychologically strong. You have to put things in perspective regarding the beating in that fight: Ronda could not eat solid food months...Roy was quickly dispatched and Floyd was in a close fight, neither guy went through what Roussey did during that one sided, never ending beat down.

I don't ultimately know how much of any fighter a woman is in MMA. There just very little consistancy. We all saw Holme dazzle and lose the thing what? the next time out? lol. So, consistancy does seem the mark of extraordinary skill of one sort or another. I give that to Roussey. I still tend to think of her more of a person on a mission than a fighter. Tate is more how I picture a fighter per se...she gave an incredible effort losing to Rousey that second fight and has the sort of one track mind of one who likes to fight... and she just retired! Ronda fought exceptionally to do what she did. Again, I can grok not calling her, or any woman in MMA for that matter, a great fighter. But with that said, that and the fact that Ronda should retire because she is done... Ronda accomplished greatness compared to her peers.

Well see how long Nunnes reigns, I doubt for long and would bet half my house Holly beats her up. lol.

[Boxing Goat]

Listen dipshit, Roy was looking down when Del Valle sent him to the mat. He got caught in his prime, stop digging a deeper hole for yourself. You said he never got caught in his prime- he did, now your backpedaling and slipping in your own shit....

Roy was KO'd multiple times after Tarver b/c he was diminished from the damage and that's my original point about Rousey - she's diminished from the damage she incurred from Holmes. In fact the first Tarver fight Roy was taken a beating like never before. It broke my heart to see him getting tagged like he was in the first fight (even though I felt he legitimately won -fuck Andre Ward thinking he doesn't need a rematch).

I didn't read this. I was done debating. F off

[F l i c k e r]

So who do you consider the GOAT? Anderson Silva? GSP?

I never feel comfortable saying GSP despite his dominance.

I wouldn't put much of an argument against Anderson Silva though. Just really unlucky with the broken leg bit. After that, never really recovered physically. He always looked out of shape really, with his edge gone.


But when it's all said and done. Conor McGregor will be the greatest of all time.

[juggernaut666]

A lot of good posts on here not sure what i can touch up on here ,except
Fighting is a mental game more than physical, and being mentally stronger than your opponent is important in almost all cases .


The mental attitude is more important than a fighter's physical attributes for most fighters (everyone should know that ) Making claims Rousey wasnt mentally back after her last fight is a real point not an excuse bc these things happen (personally thought it was a bad opponent to jump in with after long lay off ) but thought she would win based on the weigh in looks which is not everything.

The best example of someone who didnt recieve half the grief is Overeem (how many times did that guy lose) yet has key wins over Mir ,JDS , etc . I havent heard anyone yelling retirement and hes fighting hunt next ,its a bit of double standard , a loss is a loss .

You have to take your opportunities and go for the finish when the moment is there , Ronda was always good at this and finished fights fast .
This both helped and hurt her bc when the one fight with Holm didnt end quickly at the time she didnt really prepare properly that was the result not an excuse (Ronda did buckle Holm briefly thats about it ) .

How good is Rousey to bring her game back ?Only she knows .

Was she actually overrated? Only if you were to claim Gracie was overatted winning the first UFC 's (which if you think that you watching the wrong sport since he practically created MMA ) You cannot be overatted and win at top level at ANY sport no matte what you think of the competition ,anyone whos ever been on top of anything would know this .

An example for me personally would be Fedor (who i have gripes on fighter selection and level era difficultly where i actually think its rated ) but for me to call him overatted would make me a fool bc wheather i think he could have beat everyone or not (i dont ) he has the abilities to defeat anyone at any time ,this is what makes a dangerous fighter (great is subjective ) so anyone that counter arguments me will always have a rational point ,as those who make a case for Rousey not being overatted .

billeau has done all the work for me on this ,any serious fan looking for a legit breakdown will read his posts and get it because they are accurate dead on excellent points . Those who don't i would say have a set agenda and wont comply to reason anyway !


Woman do not fight like men in most cases they are more emotional and throw out game plans fast ,they are not wired to fight like men (though therer are exceptions ,i know this personally i have a older female cousin of who was 135 5'6 beat up a 240 pound bouncer on the street this was before Gina Carrano era ) i bring this up to show there are some tough bytches out there .

Point being you have to take ANY champion at face value who is able to stay on top particularly any lengthy period bc it takes tremendous mental strength to do that and you have to have a killer instinct in any combat sport to be at the top of YOUR level ,even if you are passive aggressive ,you have to seize the opening to finish a fight moreso in MMA bc its faster paced than all other combat sports (even if you think its not ) this is where Rousey needs get back to (creating openings ,not killing them )

Im not going to say she will win a title again bc i cant fight for her ,nor can anyone ,leave it to the actual fighter to see ,making claims about overatted thought tells me those who have won nothing ,when you win something its very hard to hold onto , another point i speak from experience , i would hardly call myself overaatted at anything i ever competed in ,because the particularly event i won in i was a 15 to 1 under dog in a strength contest (state championship )i didnt even train for and didnt afterwards ,i knew i could lose easily to the more prepared competition which usually happened (won borough championships but not elite ones since ) but was always a threat and winning a national tournament 7 years later proved that defeating brazils top guy . Was i overatted based on nort winning many big events ?

Not really ,because i was one of the strongest that could end a match in less than a second with any forward momentum despite odds against me in a few matches i was a top guy considered by many p4p the strongest .....this also applies to Rousey bc she can defeat anyone with just one mistake of one thing she does well (GRAPPLE ) to write her off is subjective but to use overaatted is another ,it shouldn't apply here . Ive also competed and won in boxing/Karate /Grappling and bare knuckle fights(i will not be doing that ever lol) and a few weight competitions ,the sport i was referring to was armwrestling , so i know the aspects of competing and what has to be what as ive already outlined Rousey flaws in another thread .

In the end Nunes only discredits her own win with that statement and in the process demoralizes her own friend Tate with 2 loses to Rousey which is just a reminder being a pro fighter doesnt make you automatically smart !

[Mzembe]

Its a fact her coach is crap. Many people including her mother an olmpic gold medalist in Judo are perplexed why she allowed herself to be coached by such an obvious idiot as her coach.

It also might suprise some but I actually agree with you about being a great Judo player not necessarily being a great fighter. I also studied karate many years (Okinawan Te Sho Ran Ryu ha Te) and became a great fighter to many...Mainly? well, our club was a strictly fighting club so I had no choice! I was actually in my estimation hardly a fighter, never liked to do it, prefer teaching...but, because we were fighters I learned (somewhat reluctantly at times) to either be kicked out the window (long story) or fight back.

Well see how long Nunnes reigns, I doubt for long and would bet half my house Holly beats her up. lol.

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I guess finally we're meeting in the middle. I am afraid though what I will say next will tip the pendulum on a platform you will not agree with and will probably shoot it down completely but please humor me while I get to it.

I agree with you 100% that the women's division is an inconsistent mess. The same can be said of the men's division considering anyone can be taken out and we've seen it happen many times. I also agree that Ronda was dominant but when faced with adversity she crumbled completely. Great fighters (Ali, Floyd, Cotto, Calzaghe, Marquez etc) have faced extreme adversity and managed to come back stronger and better even after some serious losses. For those great guys that lost, many of them lost or got beat when they were past their prime. In the fight game, 33 years of age is when we typically see skills diminishing, it's when we see age catching up with great fighters. Ronda is not even 30.

I also agree with you that Holmes was/is NOT an aggressive fighter but given what we've seen of Rousey now, if they were to fight again, I assure you Holmes will be trigger happy and rapidly aggressive because we all know what Rousey lacks and she will put Rousey away in the first round with ease.

I again agree with you Nunnes will not last long and I would bet my cats on Holmes to beat her up. Holmes has some serious kicks (Mawashi and Mae Geris) that are beautiful to watch.

Lastly, I am pretty sure you are familiar with the Gatti-Ward trilogy and how both guys beat the hell out of each other. They probably should have never fought again but they did and Gatti actually had a decent run until he ran into Floyd at 140Ibs and that was the end of it.

As dominant as Rousey was, I don't think she is ever going to get to that place where she will be relevant. If she fights on she will be the proverbial gate-keeper in a division that lacks consistency and people will tune in hoping to see her glory days just like we did with Tyson in the early 2000's, just like we saw with Roy after 2005. Die hard fans of Roy like myself got hoodwinked or rather believed we'd see moments of brilliance from him like we did in the past and it just never came. That's how envision Rousey's next few fights while her name is still shines and is still without a doubt the biggest draw in the women's division.

Now, back to where I mentioned you will disagree with me. I have never been a big fan of MMA. I think MMA is great to train for personal gain but it's not something that should be glorified on TV. The brutality of it is just nauseating. Often times it's brutal strength that dictates who wins so if I was to get a massive, aggressive rugby player from New Zealand or Samoa and trained him to throw wild punches, more than likely he can have a decent run with MMA. That can never happen in boxing.

[billeau2]

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I guess finally we're meeting in the middle. I am afraid though what I will say next will tip the pendulum on a platform you will not agree with and will probably shoot it down completely but please humor me while I get to it.

I agree with you 100% that the women's division is an inconsistent mess. The same can be said of the men's division considering anyone can be taken out and we've seen it happen many times. I also agree that Ronda was dominant but when faced with adversity she crumbled completely. Great fighters (Ali, Floyd, Cotto, Calzaghe, Marquez etc) have faced extreme adversity and managed to come back stronger and better even after some serious losses. For those great guys that lost, many of them lost or got beat when they were past their prime. In the fight game, 33 years of age is when we typically see skills diminishing, it's when we see age catching up with great fighters. Ronda is not even 30.

I also agree with you that Holmes was/is NOT an aggressive fighter but given what we've seen of Rousey now, if they were to fight again, I assure you Holmes will be trigger happy and rapidly aggressive because we all know what Rousey lacks and she will put Rousey away in the first round with ease.

I again agree with you Nunnes will not last long and I would bet my cats on Holmes to beat her up. Holmes has some serious kicks (Mawashi and Mae Geris) that are beautiful to watch.

Lastly, I am pretty sure you are familiar with the Gatti-Ward trilogy and how both guys beat the hell out of each other. They probably should have never fought again but they did and Gatti actually had a decent run until he ran into Floyd at 140Ibs and that was the end of it.

As dominant as Rousey was, I don't think she is ever going to get to that place where she will be relevant. If she fights on she will be the proverbial gate-keeper in a division that lacks consistency and people will tune in hoping to see her glory days just like we did with Tyson in the early 2000's, just like we saw with Roy after 2005. Die hard fans of Roy like myself got hoodwinked or rather believed we'd see moments of brilliance from him like we did in the past and it just never came. That's how envision Rousey's next few fights while her name is still shines and is still without a doubt the biggest draw in the women's division.

Now, back to where I mentioned you will disagree with me. I have never been a big fan of MMA. I think MMA is great to train for personal gain but it's not something that should be glorified on TV. The brutality of it is just nauseating. Often times it's brutal strength that dictates who wins so if I was to get a massive, aggressive rugby player from New Zealand or Samoa and trained him to throw wild punches, more than likely he can have a decent run with MMA. That can never happen in boxing.

We all face adversity when competing. Age does matter, but a lot of different things impact our fighting age. kicks to the brain stem can be a disaster in that regard. I don't know if that has caused Ronda problems and don't know what her fitness is but psychologically she is freezing up. Regarding Gatti and Ward, we all come to the table with different strengths...They allegedly did a scan of Caesar Chavez's head and found he had tremendous bone density in the cranium. David Price, a big strong heavy weight, by contrast was found to have very little punch resistance. its also psychological. When Joe Calzighe beat Lacey, he destroyed the guy, yet i doubt physically the punishment was as much as the equally matched Gatt ward fight.

Roussey has been relevent. She certainly may not be relevent again. Woman's mma does not have the complexity and nuance to have gate keeper fighters. Its doubtful she will fight again frankly. Yeah, I am not much of a fan of the sport either... The brutality is somewhat magnified by blood injuries, often which are not really that bad, but its more about using skills that apply in a somewhat narrow range of applications. people do not fight or respond like they are in a playground fight under traumatic conditions where weapons are in play. MMA is great for handling the type of conflict one can usually avoid.

I often talk to Anthony who posts here, and he can vouch for my opinions... I admired the Gracie brothers because they used smarts and technical abilility to deal with brawn... But because they were defending a style, when guys learned the tricks of the style and trained with a professional goal of winning contests, MMA became, not so much about testing a style of fighting out, as gaming the rules of the contest. Strength, and athletic ability have indeed become huge factors in these contests.

I agree with you on this point. The bottom line is that punching with a bare hand and fighting in a manner where tunnel vision happens, weapons are around, adrenaline is operative, and learning to control oneself...even being able to apply techniques that take some fine motor skills, is the skill of a martial artist...not trying to win a match according to rules under limited conditions.

Two comments about this: the gentlest arts, Judo and Aikido, traditionally cause the most and worse injuries, discounting boxing...probably because when people try to display these skills while training, they lose sight of the dangers in a rough sport. Training full contact was rough but we were always aware that what we were doing was dangerous and to be careful...The Dog Brothers train full contact with weapons and manage not to maime each other for the same reasons. So I am an advocate of training hard but not so much for sport.

The other comment is: as a bouncer for many years in a place that needed us, a had guys constantly telling me (they knew i studied because i was small and there for a reason) how good they were, how they wanted to spar me, etc...and i had guys telling me about all they had studied...and in alllll that time watching lots and lots of conflicts, breaking up everything from brawls, fights, women fighting, to even a contract hit put on the owner (gunshots and all)...I can count on one hand the times I saw a martial arts technique employed! lol.

The gracies had good fundamentals and did not use brawn, the gracie guys know though often that I see are using more and more force... but now a days brawn is a consideration indeed and a very tough rugby guy with some wrestling could probably learn a few things about punching and perhaps do well in the sport of MMA. Its like any other sport in this regard, certainly not like a martial art.

[Anthony342]

Agree on the 33 years of age thing. Probably why GSP got out at 32. How do you guys think Judo gold medalist Kayla Harrison will do in MMA? And do you like Joanna Champion, the straw weight champ?

[Anthony342]

We all face adversity when competing. Age does matter, but a lot of different things impact our fighting age. kicks to the brain stem can be a disaster in that regard. I don't know if that has caused Ronda problems and don't know what her fitness is but psychologically she is freezing up. Regarding Gatti and Ward, we all come to the table with different strengths...They allegedly did a scan of Caesar Chavez's head and found he had tremendous bone density in the cranium. David Price, a big strong heavy weight, by contrast was found to have very little punch resistance. its also psychological. When Joe Calzighe beat Lacey, he destroyed the guy, yet i doubt physically the punishment was as much as the equally matched Gatt ward fight.

Roussey has been relevent. She certainly may not be relevent again. Woman's mma does not have the complexity and nuance to have gate keeper fighters. Its doubtful she will fight again frankly. Yeah, I am not much of a fan of the sport either... The brutality is somewhat magnified by blood injuries, often which are not really that bad, but its more about using skills that apply in a somewhat narrow range of applications. people do not fight or respond like they are in a playground fight under traumatic conditions where weapons are in play. MMA is great for handling the type of conflict one can usually avoid.

I often talk to Anthony who posts here, and he can vouch for my opinions... I admired the Gracie brothers because they used smarts and technical abilility to deal with brawn... But because they were defending a style, when guys learned the tricks of the style and trained with a professional goal of winning contests, MMA became, not so much about testing a style of fighting out, as gaming the rules of the contest. Strength, and athletic ability have indeed become huge factors in these contests.

I agree with you on this point. The bottom line is that punching with a bare hand and fighting in a manner where tunnel vision happens, weapons are around, adrenaline is operative, and learning to control oneself...even being able to apply techniques that take some fine motor skills, is the skill of a martial artist...not trying to win a match according to rules under limited conditions.

Two comments about this: the gentlest arts, Judo and Aikido, traditionally cause the most and worse injuries, discounting boxing...probably because when people try to display these skills while training, they lose sight of the dangers in a rough sport. Training full contact was rough but we were always aware that what we were doing was dangerous and to be careful...The Dog Brothers train full contact with weapons and manage not to maime each other for the same reasons. So I am an advocate of training hard but not so much for sport.

The other comment is: as a bouncer for many years in a place that needed us, a had guys constantly telling me (they knew i studied because i was small and there for a reason) how good they were, how they wanted to spar me, etc...and i had guys telling me about all they had studied...and in alllll that time watching lots and lots of conflicts, breaking up everything from brawls, fights, women fighting, to even a contract hit put on the owner (gunshots and all)...I can count on one hand the times I saw a martial arts technique employed! lol.

The gracies had good fundamentals and did not use brawn, the gracie guys know though often that I see are using more and more force... but now a days brawn is a consideration indeed and a very tough rugby guy with some wrestling could probably learn a few things about punching and perhaps do well in the sport of MMA. Its like any other sport in this regard, certainly not like a martial art.

Not only did a style vs. a style make the early days of MMA, but the limited rules made it more realistic too. I mean, no weight classes or time limits or even illegal strikes. The only thing it didn't have was weapons, so it was about as close to a real street fight as they could get and still get sanctioned back then.