Only in Germany..........!!

[Novirasputin]

Now we're talking hand signals? LOL
If you're suggesting Miranda couldn't understand the so called warnings, that's all the more reason you make it very clear you're being warned, and any more such activity will result in a point taken away. Time outs are often used for such occasions.

Come off it. If you're calling those warnings, Abraham was waned for holding but nothing was done about it.

The point here is Neumann did a poor and suspect job.



Now you're rambling. Abraham would have scored a TKO? You're just grasping at straws now.

No one's ever suggested there won't be any holding. But what Abraham did over the 2nd half of the fight was excessive holding. It was worse than John Ruiz. Yes he was doing it because his jaw was broken, but it doesn't change the fact it was let slide by Neumann, who on the flip side was dinging Miranda with every point deduction he could.

The point that Neumann did a questionable job can't really be refuted.





You're begining to waste my time now.

I alreadly did post it. Here it is again:




You admitting you're wrong is irrelevent to me, because I know you're wrong. You quoted the rule from the wrong section, and I pointed that out several posts ago. The rule you quoted comes under the "Injuries and Cuts" section. That does not apply because the injury to Abraham was from a legal punch, which Neumann himself stated.

1. Fine if he did a poor and suspect job then it affected both guys because he also didn't take points off for the rabbit punch and the shots after the bell.

2. one of the problems with boxing is as i said Excessive holding vs just the right amount. The ex was to show that depending on the referee there is a wide spectrum of possibilities. In the rounds Miranda was hurt in he grabbed on for dear life, LIKE Abraham did late.
with a ref like Nady he would warn for that and take off points which i thought would be fair.
However as i said lets hypothesize
take off 2 points off AA for the holding.
then take 2 more off miranda for the rabbit punches and the hit after the bell.

Or do you only feel we should hypothesize about lost points for AA and not Miranda?

3. As far as Neumann doing a questionable job YES in some aspects. he favored Miranda in instances (rabbit punch, bell punch) and AA in some instances (holding, elbows-although this is a very big discussion so only if you feel i should elaborate on this point)

4. """""depending on the severity of the foul"""" THE foul NOT THE INJURY.
The injury was not severe, the FOUL was. It was intentional and blatant. Not similar to say Jirov Moorer where Jirov none cautiously led with his head and lost a single point because while not clearly intentional his style with the head leading proved dangerous and he was warned a point deducted BUT that instance was not blatant because he did not **** his head back and fire.

[Bozo_no no]

1. Fine if he did a poor and suspect job then it affected both guys because he also didn't take points off for the rabbit punch and the shots after the bell.

Notice how you're bringing up different things out of nowhere? You're getting desperate now.

Just accept it: the officiating catered to Abraham. Plain and simple. Neumann did a questionable job and Miranda was singeled out. From the begining of the thead you've attempted to dispell this and have failed.

Miranda had FIVE points deducted, when there should have been two at the most.

The ref showed he's trigger happy to deduct points, and did so only from Miranda despite Abraham's excessive (by Ruiz standards) holding.

one of the problems with boxing is as i said Excessive holding vs just the right amount. The ex was to show that depending on the referee there is a wide spectrum of possibilities. In the rounds Miranda was hurt in he grabbed on for dear life, LIKE Abraham did late.

So the brief holding Miranda did was like the sustained and excessive holding Abraham did over the entire 2nd half of the fight?

Brilliant.

4. """""depending on the severity of the foul"""" THE foul NOT THE INJURY.
The injury was not severe, the FOUL was. It was intentional and blatant.

What happened to the part about you admitting you were wrong?

This is just getting sad now.

Now you're telling me that was a severe headbutt? You said a few posts back you thought two points was excessive.

I think I've heard enough about what you think. It's gotten to the point now where it's changing with each post.

[Novirasputin]

Notice how you're bringing up different things out of nowhere? You're getting desperate now.

Just accept it: the officiating catered to Abraham. Plain and simple. Neumann did a questionable job and Miranda was singeled out. From the begining of the thead you've attempted to dispell this and have failed.

Miranda had FIVE points deducted, when there should have been two at the most.

The ref showed he's trigger happy to deduct points, and did so only from Miranda despite Abraham's excessive (by Ruiz standards) holding.



So the brief holding Miranda did was like the sustained and excessive holding Abraham did over the entire 2nd half of the fight?

Brilliant.



What happened to the part about you admitting you were wrong?

This is just getting sad now.

Now you're telling me that was a severe headbutt? You said a few posts back you thought two points was excessive.

I think I've heard enough about what you think. It's gotten to the point now where it's changing with each post.

1. if i was getting desperate i would admit this. You want to stop arguing
i don't mind it.


2. i feel you are the one who failed and i don't see how you have proved anything.

The fight should have been stopped IMHO. So AA didn't get any ref help when the fight was not stopped
and when he was hit with the rabbit punch and not given a break
and when Miranda hit him FIRST and intentionally after the bell.

So miranda gets THOSE things to go his way
but Abraham had the advantage.


3. Miranda should have had 2 more deducted for teh rabbit punch and bell shot. Should have could have would have. Now try to explain why they were not deducted with the same sort of hypothesis you did about why Miranda should have had less deducted and Abraham more.

4. IF You provide adequate proof. I agree that 2 points was excessive BUT IF IBF RULES JUSTIFY THE DEDUCTION EVEN if unreasonable you can't argue with that. I got a 50 dollar ticket for no seatbelt.
Yea i think he cop is an ass and am pissed but i got caught with me pants down, not much i can do.
The foul was severe as it was intentional
the injury was not hence the rule regarding either of the two things the ref can do comes in to play
either a 2 point or a DQ
the interesting thing was there was also a legit broken jaw from a punch which could have stopped the fight
which is what the confusion was about since they have to go and indicate OUTSIDE the ring what caused what and what happened.

5. Its not changing i am countering your points.

my opinions on teh fight
regarding AA being deducted points coincide with yours, so do they about the 2 points being too harsh
BUT that does not make the officiating crappy (it was for other reasons)
the 2 points is an IBF mandated rule.
AA wasn't deducted points but Miranda wasn't for 2 other fouls
That balances THOSE 2 aspects out in terms of COULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE.
the low blows as i said i posted to show that there were many questionable shots (if you want to say questionable) and that the ref wasn't taking points out of his ass and told Miranda to "keep em up" and as he said that by rule what most refs do is he also pointed with his hand to keep them up WITHOUT stopping the action since the shot was not pain and might have been unintentional (and i am sure some were. Miranda is not ****** enough to keep doing it, but even if it strays low that is still a foul. )
This is why 3 points is not out of the realm of possibility (7 or so questionable LB's. IMHO at least 4 were well below the belt. 2 were clearly on the sweet spot.)

[Pantera2000]

How many rabbit punches did Abraham throw without a word? I saw three in a row in one of the later rounds, not a word from Neumann and he was watching it all.

[Bozo_no no]

1. if i was getting desperate i would admit this. You want to stop arguing
i don't mind it.


2. i feel you are the one who failed and i don't see how you have proved anything.

The fight should have been stopped IMHO. So AA didn't get any ref help when the fight was not stopped
and when he was hit with the rabbit punch and not given a break
and when Miranda hit him FIRST and intentionally after the bell.

So miranda gets THOSE things to go his way
but Abraham had the advantage.


3. Miranda should have had 2 more deducted for teh rabbit punch and bell shot. Should have could have would have. Now try to explain why they were not deducted with the same sort of hypothesis you did about why Miranda should have had less deducted and Abraham more.

4. IF You provide adequate proof. I agree that 2 points was excessive BUT IF IBF RULES JUSTIFY THE DEDUCTION EVEN if unreasonable you can't argue with that. I got a 50 dollar ticket for no seatbelt.
Yea i think he cop is an ass and am pissed but i got caught with me pants down, not much i can do.
The foul was severe as it was intentional
the injury was not hence the rule regarding either of the two things the ref can do comes in to play
either a 2 point or a DQ
the interesting thing was there was also a legit broken jaw from a punch which could have stopped the fight
which is what the confusion was about since they have to go and indicate OUTSIDE the ring what caused what and what happened.

5. Its not changing i am countering your points.

my opinions on teh fight
regarding AA being deducted points coincide with yours, so do they about the 2 points being too harsh
BUT that does not make the officiating crappy (it was for other reasons)
the 2 points is an IBF mandated rule.
AA wasn't deducted points but Miranda wasn't for 2 other fouls
That balances THOSE 2 aspects out in terms of COULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE.
the low blows as i said i posted to show that there were many questionable shots (if you want to say questionable) and that the ref wasn't taking points out of his ass and told Miranda to "keep em up" and as he said that by rule what most refs do is he also pointed with his hand to keep them up WITHOUT stopping the action since the shot was not pain and might have been unintentional (and i am sure some were. Miranda is not ****** enough to keep doing it, but even if it strays low that is still a foul. )
This is why 3 points is not out of the realm of possibility (7 or so questionable LB's. IMHO at least 4 were well below the belt. 2 were clearly on the sweet spot.)

So now Miranda should have lost 7 points? That should be your thesis statement for all you've said here. Sums what you're saying up to a tee.


You continue to dance around the fact you read the rules wrong.

The IBF Mandates a 2 point deduction if an intentional foul that causes a cut or injury. It did not. I pointed this out, and showed you where you were pasting the wrong rule from and you ignored it and rambled on about non sense.

The rule clearly states that it's the reff's desctetion based on the severity of the foul. You agree two points was excessive in that regard and then go back to ranting about your misquoted mandated rule.

You were the one who started the thread out by posting a bunch of meaningless screen caps trying to justify the reff making poor calls.

I pointed out why that was bogus, and you've done nothing but try to present a bunch of excuses justifying the referee's poor job ever since.

Only in the process you've already admitted he did a questioable job, just like you admitted taking two points away for that headbutt was excessive.

To both of those instances, you're now just ranting on and on trying to save face.

Taking 5 points away from Miranda was overkill. The officiating in the fight was suspect and questionable. Deal with it and move on.

[Novirasputin]

So now Miranda should have lost 7 points? That should be your thesis statement for all you've said here. Sums what you're saying up to a tee.


You continue to dance around the fact you read the rules wrong.

The IBF Mandates a 2 point deduction if an intentional foul that causes a cut or injury. It did not. I pointed this out, and showed you where you were pasting the wrong rule from and you ignored it and rambled on about non sense.

The rule clearly states that it's the reff's desctetion based on the severity of the foul. You agree two points was excessive in that regard and then go back to ranting about your misquoted mandated rule.

You were the one who started the thread out by posting a bunch of meaningless screen caps trying to justify the reff making poor calls.

I pointed out why that was bogus, and you've done nothing but try to present a bunch of excuses justifying the referee's poor job ever since.

Only in the process you've already admitted he did a questioable job, just like you admitted taking two points away for that headbutt was excessive.

To both of those instances, you're now just ranting on and on trying to save face.

Taking 5 points away from Miranda was overkill. The officiating in the fight was suspect and questionable. Deal with it and move on.

1. Miranda was the dirtier fighter. The point was COULD SHOULDA WOULDA about how many he was supposed to lose (more or less) CAN WORK BOTH WAYS.

YOU are trying to dance around the fact that Miranda also rabbit punched, and hit after the bell.


2. The IBF mandates a 2 point deduction for an intentional foul (severity determined by ref). the degree of the injury determines if the fighter is DQEd or loses those 2 points.
Excessive? YES, BY THE BOOK? Also yes.

3. They were not meaningless. The proved that the ref was not making calls out of his ass and had justification to do so.


4. I admitted he did a questionable job in regard to OTHER things. Doing a questionable job does not mean admitting YOU are correct, because you are WRONG and what is worse even smug about it.

5. Taking 5 points from Miranda could be deemed overkill (i am sure the IBF will review the fight) or it could be deemed TOO little since as i said there were many instances of MORE fouling by Miranda (and some by AA). The same can be said about his handling of the holding which is as i said was poor and was a problem for him in the past
most recently from what i remember in Ruiz Golota. THIS affected both fighters equally.

If Holding should be handled the way NADY does (which he is criticized for too) then Miranda held excessively too. I DON"T THINK SO
BUT that is one of the major problems with boxing
there is no clear understanding of this rule. and so that has to be changed.

[Bozo_no no]

1. Miranda was the dirtier fighter. The point was COULD SHOULDA WOULDA about how many he was supposed to lose (more or less) CAN WORK BOTH WAYS.

YOU are trying to dance around the fact that Miranda also rabbit punched, and hit after the bell.

None of this changes the fact that taking 5 points from one fighter and none from the other when he held for half the fight is suspect and questionable officiating.

But for a 3rd time now, you've alreadly agreed twice that the officiating was suspect.

2. The IBF mandates a 2 point deduction for an intentional foul (severity determined by ref). the degree of the injury determines if the fighter is DQEd or loses those 2 points.
Excessive? YES, BY THE BOOK? Also yes.

100% Wrong.

You read the rule wrong and you know it. It's pathetic you're not able to admit it.

The rule for an intentional foul states points will be deduted or the fighter will be DQ'd depending on the severity of the foul.

There is NOTHING saying it's an automatic 2 point deduction for an intentional headbutt anywhere outside of the "Injury (Cuts)" section.

You're misquoting the rules and you know it.

There was no cut or injury from the headbutt, thus it was Neumann's descretion how to deal with it. And we already know how you feel about that:

I thought it harsh myself to be honest (1 point would suffice)

Give it up. The automatic 2 point deduction is under the rules section pertaining to "Inuries (cuts)" that result from intentional fouls.

You're wrong.

3. They were not meaningless. The proved that the ref was not making calls out of his ass and had justification to do so.

We've been over this.

the photo's you posted were screen caps that show Miranda landing shots near the beltline.

Abraham's trunks cover his navel. This is exactly why referee's show the fighters where on the trunks he'll allow a shot.

You don't know where that was said in this figth, thus your photos and insinuations are meaningless.

There was no clear warning for low blows.

"Keep em up" is the same kind of warning "stop holding" is. Unless prefaced by "I'll take a point away", it's not enough.

5. Taking 5 points from Miranda could be deemed overkill (i am sure the IBF will review the fight) or it could be deemed TOO little since as i said there were many instances of MORE fouling by Miranda (and some by AA).

THIS affected both fighters equally.

In one instance you suggest 7 points could have been taken away from Miranda, and in the next breath you suggest the questionable reffing affected both fighters equally.

Equally is NOT taking 5 points from one fighter, and none from the other.

You've failed to make any point here.

[BrooklynBomber]

This thread is funny....
Notice both of you wrote about enough to have a complete masters thesis, but all that you did is paraphrase each other and yourselves.
In the end Miranda lost(due to his ******ity mostly) Abraham won(due to his heart and Miranda's ******ity) and speculating wether there was a fix and referee is bias, is well a speculation.

[BrooklynBomber]

Oh, and Bozo, when you tell people that they are "desparate", is that some form of hypnotizing them?

[Bozo_no no]

Oh, and Bozo, when you tell people that they are "desparate", is that some form of hypnotizing them?

Desperation shows when someone abandons what they were saying and resorts to changing the subject. It happens a lot around here.