Only in Germany..........!!

[bigtime9]

Giving him rounds for 15 seconds worth of clean punching outside of 2 mins 45 seconds of running, covering up and holding is a stretch.

In boxing is called cheating...in Germany the fight cards were already filled out before the fight started. If they fought in the states mirand by tko or unanimous decision

[VanesBoxing]

Only in Germay...
will people push a Champion to his last breath and let a WAR go on so that a historic GREAT FIGHT can be made. ( I guess it was alot more emotional for me given an Armenian has never been in such a high caliber, world stage fight)

He is KING ARTHUR and he will recover. The fight could have/should have been stopped, BUT IT WASNT, and ABRAHAM was man enough to show the Heart of a Lion and beat a tough undefeated opponent with a broken jaw.

Stop all the hating and bull**** about Only in Germany. They take some risks there that we wouldnt take here in the US, and the risk made for an incredible heroic fight that otherwise would have been an early unwarranted premature TKO.

I understand it came at the expense of Arthur's health, but he is a Warrior, and he decided to fight, cant take nothin away from him for doin so.

Im glad no one has responded with anything to this, cuz it was well thought out, and I dont think much else can be said to add or take away from this.

[Novirasputin]

There is so much of this post that is just wrong.

Starting with the photos. Those are all still captures, and that could be done with any fighter in any fight. Abraham's trunks are covering his navel, and you almost always see a referee motion where on the trunks a puch will be legal. This is not apparent in the pre fight instructions, thus it's not clear.

Second, you seem to be implying that Miranda landing borderline low should have lead to more warning and or deductions.

Abraham excessively held over the 2nd part of the fight, and received no warning. This was just as bad if not worse in terms of fouling than what you posted in those photos.

3rd, the IBF rules state that an intentional foul that causes injury warrents an automatic 2 point deduction. For an intention foul that doesn't cause injury, the wording is left open to the referee's discretion. The headbutt did not cause that injury and the reff stated that in the time out after the butt.

4th, you say Abraham "hurt" Miranda in rounds 4,8,9.

That's VERY subjective. He had him reeling in the 4th, until Miranda broke his jaw. In the 8th and 9th, Abraham's flurring was very short lived and brief. Suggesting he should have automaticly been given those rounds is a big stretch.

I can accept someone scoring the fight for Abraham with all those deductions, but your opinion is very pointed and couldn't lean anymore to Abraham's side.

Living with the reff's decision, Abraham retained his title. But there is a lot of room for debate here because a lot about the fight was contraversial.

There is nothing you can say that is going to make those shots you posted in still caps low. The line of where a shot is acceptable is determined by the referee in the pre fight instructions, and was not included in the video. According to almost every instance, a shot right on the belt line (where you have all of those punches landing) IS legal.

Regardless, there was no verbal warnings for low blows.




Point out that he's a poor official, as has been mentioned by several people in the days following this fight. A foul is a foul, and claiming it's worse in one instance than in another doesn't cut it.

Bottom line is that what Abraham did was deserving of him losing several points for repeated holding. It was beyond excessive in the last half of the fight because it's just about all he did.



I've read it. You need to take another look.

The part you're quoting is section 2.b of the heading "Injuries (cuts)".

The injury in question was not the result of a headbutt. Thus, you're reading the wrong section. Because the was no injury that resulted from the butt, it was up to Neuman to determine the savarity of the foul. Watch that butt again and tell me it deserves 2 points taken away. It does not.





Giving him rounds for 15 seconds worth of clean punching outside of 2 mins 45 seconds of running, covering up and holding is a stretch.

1. THere was BUT there was no break in teh action "keep em up is a warning" but since he did not hurt AA enough with those LB's RN did not step in to cal a halt to the action BUT did WARN the fighter that his shots were low.

If you don't think they are low fine. MY point was the ref determined at the pre fight instructions what was to be low and told the fighters IF He deemed it low then that means the blows either coincided with his rules, he made a mistake, he is corrupt.
if you think he is corrupt or made that many mistakes fine

but don't give me this if i think those shots (all of which have the black touch the blue) were all low(even though as i said they were not worthy of deductions in some cases but Warnings which is what MIranda got and IMHO not often enough, but the penalties were fine because he kept hitting the blue below the navel line)


2. You are pointing out he is a poor official. This is why HOPKINS for instance argued against Cortez, and that is what fighters should do. I am not excusing Neumann. But for instance i know that Jay nady is not a ref who will let holding go so i try to get him if i am not going to be clinching alot.
AND some people get on Nady's case for being to excessive about it.
You can't please everybody.

as i said when Miranda held, and when he hit AA behind the head, and after the bell, he got away with it too.
If both fighters can hold equally then it even's the playing field until one hurts the other, but you can't say "oh well now that he is taking advantage of the refs weakness too much." Miranda held a fair share too and Neumann didn't say anything to him.

That is not proof of corruption
rather PERHAPS poor officiating for BOTH fighters. THat does not mean the result of the fight should be overturned as both men were at a disadvantage.

3. Then point out the rule with the IBF that says what you say?

The rule above says teh ref can do 1 of 2 things
either DQ or a mandatory 2 pointer.
the injury only allows the ref leeway between the two. there is no in between
at least not with the IBF.
I agree of course it was not a severe blow
but it was INTENTIONAL and if there is no other stipulation the above IBF rule clearly states its a 2 point MUST.

So find me another stipulation from the IBF rules and i will agree with you.

4. that is no more subjective then what i said.

[bishop2006]

This ****s gettin boring now,listen and listen closely,Miranda wasnt hardly hitting Abraham,Abrahams defence was so tight Miranda couldent land a meaningfull shot besides the 1 that broke Abrahams jaw,Abraham had Miranda hurt 4 times in the fight,If u watch the fight,Abrahams punches were short and crisp and landing everytime he threw,and like a idiot Miranda would run back and put his head up high at the ropes like hes in trouble,that itself could make a judge give the other guy the round,i was watching the fight closely,and i gave it 115-109 to Abraham,Miranda maybe was the agressive fighter,but i dont give rounds 2 people who are getting half of there shots blocked,i give it 2 the person who has the better control and who lands the better shots,which was Abraham

[antihero]

Miranda only really got himself to blame though. If he had kept a cooler head, he wins the fight imo. He had broken Abraham's jaw unknown to him, and then he goes and uses the head in close. Big stoppage in the fifth and points deduction. Abraham's corner team keeps him in the fight during the intervals. What I didn't get was all the consulting by the supervisors and ref in the fifth. It seemed to favour Abraham. Then again he had been fouled.
When the fight continues, Miranda keeps hitting low and loses more points. I thought the fight was fairly even, Miranda was the aggressor but Abraham was landing the cleaner shots imo on the defensive. Abraham gets another rest in the eleventh I think from another low blow. Miranda isn't going to get any favours in Germany and I think he got caught up in the occasion too much. They had words in the build up to the bout and it was a nasty match at times. If Miranda fights fair, he wins but he didn't really.

[Bozo_no no]

1. THere was BUT there was no break in teh action "keep em up is a warning" but since he did not hurt AA enough with those LB's RN did not step in to cal a halt to the action BUT did WARN the fighter that his shots were low.

You mean the same way he told Abraham not to hold? lol, funny how that's a warning in one case and a casual pointer in the other.

A propper warning for a low blow is "Do that again and I'm going to take a point away".

The point is, those shots you posted in the photo were not low blows that deserved warnings or point deductions. You posted them to try and underline why you felt the deductions were deserved. The only problem is, still caps aren't proof of where anything landed in contrast to where the reff indicated was low on the trunks, which you don't know of either.

if you think he is corrupt or made that many mistakes fine

Corrupt, no. Neglegent, yes.

as i said when Miranda held, and when he hit AA behind the head, and after the bell, he got away with it too.

If both fighters can hold equally then it even's the playing field until one hurts the other, but you can't say "oh well now that he is taking advantage of the refs weakness too much." Miranda held a fair share too and Neumann didn't say anything to him.

I'm not even going to respond to a suggestion that Miranda held anywhere NEAR as close to the holding that Abraham did. Again, it's ALL he did in the 2nd half of the fight, and he received warning after warning (according to your defintion of a warning) but no follow up points were deducted.

That is not proof of corruption
rather PERHAPS poor officiating for BOTH fighters. THat does not mean the result of the fight should be overturned as both men were at a disadvantage.

Again, not corruption, neglegence. Neumann was clearly penalizing Miranda very prematurly and harshly, and let Abraham's holding go. You can chalk it up to "Nuemann doesn't think holding is that bad", that doesn't chage the fact he did a poor job in this fight which lead to one fighter being favored.

3. Then point out the rule with the IBF that says what you say?

The rule above says teh ref can do 1 of 2 things
either DQ or a mandatory 2 pointer.
the injury only allows the ref leeway between the two. there is no in between
at least not with the IBF.
I agree of course it was not a severe blow
but it was INTENTIONAL and if there is no other stipulation the above IBF rule clearly states its a 2 point MUST.

So find me another stipulation from the IBF rules and i will agree with you.

Go back and read it again. You quoted from the wrong section plain and simple. You took the rules from when a "Cut or injury" occurs.

Above that section, it states a deliberate foul will be met with loss of points or a DQ, depending on the severity of the foul.

Again I ask you to look at that headbutt and use common sense. In any other fight that would have been a warning. MAYBE a 1 point deduction in the worst case.

But two points for that butt was a bad call, and you were quoting from the wrong section of the rules to try and justify it.

[VanesBoxing]

This ****s gettin boring now,listen and listen closely,Miranda wasnt hardly hitting Abraham,Abrahams defence was so tight Miranda couldent land a meaningfull shot besides the 1 that broke Abrahams jaw,Abraham had Miranda hurt 4 times in the fight,If u watch the fight,Abrahams punches were short and crisp and landing everytime he threw,and like a idiot Miranda would run back and put his head up high at the ropes like hes in trouble,that itself could make a judge give the other guy the round,i was watching the fight closely,and i gave it 115-109 to Abraham,Miranda maybe was the agressive fighter,but i dont give rounds 2 people who are getting half of there shots blocked,i give it 2 the person who has the better control and who lands the better shots,which was Abraham

finally, someone that actually watched the fight instead of the drama surrounding it.

well said.

[Novirasputin]

You mean the same way he told Abraham not to hold? lol, funny how that's a warning in one case and a casual pointer in the other.

A propper warning for a low blow is "Do that again and I'm going to take a point away".

The point is, those shots you posted in the photo were not low blows that deserved warnings or point deductions. You posted them to try and underline why you felt the deductions were deserved. The only problem is, still caps aren't proof of where anything landed in contrast to where the reff indicated was low on the trunks, which you don't know of either.



Corrupt, no. Neglegent, yes.



I'm not even going to respond to a suggestion that Miranda held anywhere NEAR as close to the holding that Abraham did. Again, it's ALL he did in the 2nd half of the fight, and he received warning after warning (according to your defintion of a warning) but no follow up points were deducted.




Again, not corruption, neglegence. Neumann was clearly penalizing Miranda very prematurly and harshly, and let Abraham's holding go. You can chalk it up to "Nuemann doesn't think holding is that bad", that doesn't chage the fact he did a poor job in this fight which lead to one fighter being favored.





Go back and read it again. You quoted from the wrong section plain and simple. You took the rules from when a "Cut or injury" occurs.

Above that section, it states a deliberate foul will be met with loss of points or a DQ, depending on the severity of the foul.

Again I ask you to look at that headbutt and use common sense. In any other fight that would have been a warning. MAYBE a 1 point deduction in the worst case.

But two points for that butt was a bad call, and you were quoting from the wrong section of the rules to try and justify it.

1. Does Miranda speak English? the SYMBOl for keep it up is the hand going up. neumann did that. Otherwise if you feel that strongly as you said complain to the IBF.

2. They weren't? Well then as i said the ref is either corrupt or incompetent.
Your subjective opinion on the matter is no diff from mine. IN THE WORST case scenario, the point was to show WHY the ref did what he did and that there were then 3 instances of it so that Neumann wasn't just doing it whenever he had an excuse.

3. I never said he did hold that much BUT when he did hold it was not checked and he got the same reprieve as AA. AS OPPOSED to Nady who will warn you for the first hand you try to use to hold not even a full clinch.
That is the way Neumann officiates and if its wrong it would have and did hurt both fighters because AA had Miranda reeling WAY before Miranda had him running in the later rounds.

SO that means if the holding calls would have been enforced the way Nady does for instance AA would have TKoed Miranda in the 3rd,4th or 5th
or at the very least hurt him enough to do it later because EM could not hold to get out of trouble.

4. Subjective opinion. As i said and as i showed there were warnings and many questionable shots beforehand INCLUDING fouls like rabbit punches and punching after the bell from MIranda
BOTH OF which were blatant and both of which he got away with. As i said both fighters were at a disadvantage or advantage depending on how you look at it. Nobody is favored when a ref is equal to both in one or another sense.

5. Then post the correct section and stipulation instead of saying i am wrong. post it go to the IBF site and the PDF document and post it.
if you do and it is as you say i shall admit i am wrong. otherwise it was an intentional foul and regardless of the injury (which btw was unclear because Abraham grabbed his head. of course you will say "oh he is playing it off." HOWEVER a hit like that could hurt a fighter or daze him momentarily hence that is an injury NOT a severe one but an injury. An injury like that is why there is a break for a few minutes
OBVIOUSLy it is not enough to stop a fight, but since it is an injury the rule holds even if you do not like it.

I thought it harsh myself to be honest (1 point would suffice) BUT if the IBF rule which you have yet to disprove by posting the one that does work in this instance is 2 points then this is not something Neumann Abraham are at fault about.
Miranda had a great chance at winning were he to not foul.

[Bozo_no no]

1. Does Miranda speak English? the SYMBOl for keep it up is the hand going up. neumann did that. Otherwise if you feel that strongly as you said complain to the IBF.

Now we're talking hand signals? lol

If you're suggesting Miranda couldn't understand the so called warnings, that's all the more reason it should be made very clear he's being warned, and any more such activity will result in a point taken away. Time outs are often used for such occasions.

If you're calling those warnings, Abraham was warned for holding but nothing was done about it.

The point here is Neumann did a poor and suspect job.

3. I never said he did hold that much BUT when he did hold it was not checked and he got the same reprieve as AA. AS OPPOSED to Nady who will warn you for the first hand you try to use to hold not even a full clinch.
That is the way Neumann officiates and if its wrong it would have and did hurt both fighters because AA had Miranda reeling WAY before Miranda had him running in the later rounds.

SO that means if the holding calls would have been enforced the way Nady does for instance AA would have TKoed Miranda in the 3rd,4th or 5th
or at the very least hurt him enough to do it later because EM could not hold to get out of trouble.

Now you're rambling. Abraham would have scored a TKO? You're just grasping at straws now.

No one's ever suggested there won't be any holding. But what Abraham did over the 2nd half of the fight was excessive holding. It was worse than John Ruiz. Yes he was doing it because his jaw was broken, but it doesn't change the fact it was let slide by Neumann, who on the flip side was dinging Miranda with every point deduction he could.

The point that Neumann did a questionable job can't really be refuted.

5. Then post the correct section and stipulation instead of saying i am wrong. post it go to the IBF site and the PDF document and post it.
if you do and it is as you say i shall admit i am wrong.

You're begining to waste my time now.

I alreadly did post it. Here it is again:

Above that section, it states a deliberate foul will be met with loss of points or a DQ, depending on the severity of the foul.

You admitting you're wrong is irrelevent to me, because I know you're wrong. You quoted the rule from the wrong section, and I pointed that out several posts ago. The rule you quoted comes under the "Injuries and Cuts" section. That does not apply because the injury to Abraham was from a legal punch, which Neumann himself stated.

[Tobi.G]

Watched the Abraham - Miranda fight..............what a joke!

The referee was a joke too.............yes he is a yank, but he had no idea what was going on and he took the easy way in favouring the local!!

That "headbutt" perhaps was intentional, but it would have to be a very light intentional...............the ref, ah ah....doesn't know what to do so he speaks to supervisor and they work out what to do!!...what a joke!...in the meantime, he gives Abraham 5 or 10 minutes to be stay with the doctor and work on injuries he received from the fight which had nothing to do with the headbutt!!!!...that is illegal.......2....the ref then decides to take 2 points from Miranda!!...that is a joke, at worst 1 point...

rest of the fight, any punch to the body was deemed a low blow, and penalties were given at will..........most of the time it was abraham going back and punches hitting his forearms and sliding low to his belt line!!..................once again, a crap referee looks to the easy way, and 1. gives abraham more time to recuperate and 2. takes more points off miranda!!...

at the end, I can't really see what Abraham did to win that fight!!....ran all night, tried to win the fight in 20 secs or so per round, which doesn't usually fool the judges in the U.S...and he wins............

if we ignore Mirana losing the 5 points, Miranda still would have lost...........what a joke!...

Most people seem to ignore this and say that Abraham is a warrior, and I say, yes he is...but this is not about him, but about the fight and the decision............I don't believe the referee and supervisor, judges, etc are paid out by the promoters, i just believe they are overawed by the situation!!

I don't think I've ever seen a referee so uncertain as to what to do ....soft headbutt to side of head, so he gives the fighter many minutes to look at another injury and recuperate etc.......................


last but not least, never ever have I seen in the states, this, the doctor cheering on a fighter!!!....so much for being a doctor and or being impartial!!...

as i said, only in germany!

Please stop this only in germany bull****!!