Bert Sugar's Top 100 Fighters Of All Time...

[ferocity]

I think black jesus just meant that if you are a chavez fan, you should not complain about fouls, since jc was not exactly a saint himself.

I am sure you are smart enough to know that

1. whitaker schooled jc not just bcos of fouls

2. if jc managed to foul pea, he sure would have (if anything to slow him down) but pea was perfect that night: he neutralized one of the greatest offensive machines to ever step in a ring. hats off!

No fighter is a saint in the ring. Its boxing, they ain't their to make friends. Whitiker fouled to compete with Chavez, not difficult to belive when you've their fight. Greatest Offensive machines, Sweet Pea? You got the wrong fighter, defence ok. Even though Whitiker himself got himself two hometown decision against Rivera.

[We've Got Bush]

I Think Wilfredo Gomez is to low.

[wmute]

No fighter is a saint in the ring. Its boxing, they ain't their to make friends. Whitiker fouled to compete with Chavez, not difficult to belive when you've their fight. Greatest Offensive machines, Sweet Pea? You got the wrong fighter, defence ok. Even though Whitiker himself got himself two hometown decision against Rivera.

read carefully my post...

he (pea) neutralized one of the greatest offensive machines (jc)

and btw the 2nd fight with rivera was not even close to a hometown decision.

the 1st one had some controversy surrounding it, but there was no hometown involved (pea is from ******ia, the fight was in the caribbeans... much closer to puertorico, i guess)

ok i checked the 1st one was in antilles hollandaise, which are south of puertorico, the 2nd one was in miami. hometown decisions, huh?

if anything pea faced robberies and doubtful decisions against himself (ramirez, chavez, de la hoya)... little wonder considering his style and public image were not very profitable.

[El Jesus]

I think black jesus just meant that if you are a chavez fan, you should not complain about fouls, since jc was not exactly a saint himself.

I am sure you are smart enough to know that

1. whitaker schooled jc not just bcos of fouls

2. if jc managed to foul pea, he sure would have (if anything to slow him down) but pea was perfect that night: he neutralized one of the greatest offensive machines to ever step in a ring. hats off!

This is what I mean. TOP lists have to do with skill and overall talent. Whitaker is easily one of the greatest talents of his time, easily and that includes Chavez' time. Whitaker was a better fighter than Chavez, and it showed in their fight.

Ferocity you cant just spin the argument how you want it, you cant say "WELL WHITAKER FOULED!" he barely did any of that and it was not intentional. Whitaker didint need to do stuff like that. The only thing Whitaker lacked was power. But Whitaker didint have a huge fanbase, a huge following, he was appreciated by those who are in love with the sport. Chavez being ranked 17th doesnt bother me, its thepeople SKILLWISE who are better than him that he sits over on that list.

Skilled tacticians like Whitaker view fouling intentionally taking away from what makes them great, and thats outclassing you. Fouling intentionally isnt outclassing someone. You want to bring up Bernard Hopkins, what does this have to do with anything? The only thing Hopkins and Whitaker have in common is that they are both black. Hopkins is actually more along the lines of Chavez in terms of using experiance and ring saavy to outwork opponents. But as far as fight intelligence goes, i have to give it to Bernard because he takes so many things away from you that would normally make you effective, and the fact that he did it well into 41 ****in years old just tells me how ring smart he is.



Chavez was great at many things offensively, he was the kind of fighter who had alot of tricks in the ring that if you couldnt get ahold of, you would fold under the pressure.

Your in for a lonely argument if your trying to imply that Chavez was more skilled than Whitaker, seriously.

[El Jesus]

Even though Whitiker himself got himself two hometown decision against Rivera.

And what hometown was that?

You speak down on other people if they dont know every single aspect of Chavez' career, yet you yourself fail to know about one of the greatest fight minds ever to exist, again, DO NOT just spin things to make your arguments look more credible. You constantly do this and it almost always damages your credibility, you cant just make up your own standards to how things work or worked out.

You call other people "Newbs" yet you yourself lack alot of knowledge yourself, we all do to some extent, but dont pretend like you know boxing more than others based on a few small details of a certain fighter when you yourself make this mistake on a constant basis.

[ferocity]

read carefully my post...

he (pea) neutralized one of the greatest offensive machines (jc)

and btw the 2nd fight with rivera was not even close to a hometown decision.

the 1st one had some controversy surrounding it, but there was no hometown involved (pea is from ******ia, the fight was in the caribbeans... much closer to puertorico, i guess)

ok i checked the 1st one was in antilles hollandaise, which are south of puertorico, the 2nd one was in miami. hometown decisions, huh?

if anything pea faced robberies and doubtful decisions against himself (ramirez, chavez, de la hoya)... little wonder considering his style and public image were not very profitable.

Sweet Pea used a lot of dirty tactics when he fought Chavez.

Regardless where the fight was held Wilfredo Rivera was robbed both times. I just saw their second fight the other day, and man, Rivera counter punched the great counter puncher that was Whitiker, they robbed him, the HBO crew was really biased that night and Foreman being as biased as he was that night was really shocking. I think i'll upload that fight, so watch for it at the video section and view it again.


Forgot to add, even Whitiker knew he was losing as was evident by him saying so to his corner people, Whitiker was more clowing then fighting- regarding Delahoya fight.

[Memorex]

Oscar de la Hoya needs to be on that list.

[ferocity]

This is what I mean. TOP lists have to do with skill and overall talent. Whitaker is easily one of the greatest talents of his time, easily and that includes Chavez' time. Whitaker was a better fighter than Chavez, and it showed in their fight.

Ferocity you cant just spin the argument how you want it, you cant say "WELL WHITAKER FOULED!" he barely did any of that and it was not intentional. Whitaker didint need to do stuff like that. The only thing Whitaker lacked was power. But Whitaker didint have a huge fanbase, a huge following, he was appreciated by those who are in love with the sport. Chavez being ranked 17th doesnt bother me, its thepeople SKILLWISE who are better than him that he sits over on that list.

Skilled tacticians like Whitaker view fouling intentionally taking away from what makes them great, and thats outclassing you. Fouling intentionally isnt outclassing someone. You want to bring up Bernard Hopkins, what does this have to do with anything? The only thing Hopkins and Whitaker have in common is that they are both black. Hopkins is actually more along the lines of Chavez in terms of using experiance and ring saavy to outwork opponents. But as far as fight intelligence goes, i have to give it to Bernard because he takes so many things away from you that would normally make you effective, and the fact that he did it well into 41 ****in years old just tells me how ring smart he is.



Chavez was great at many things offensively, he was the kind of fighter who had alot of tricks in the ring that if you couldnt get ahold of, you would fold under the pressure.

Your in for a lonely argument if your trying to imply that Chavez was more skilled than Whitaker, seriously.

How did this turn inot an argument that Whitiker is more skilled?

All i said is that Whitiker had to cheat to beat Chavez. If you dont' think Chavez was as skilled as Whitiker if not more then you need to do your home work. I have never doubted Whitkers skills but many like to doubt Chavez skills so then i in turn talk trash with the holes that fight A or B has.

Are you implying that Hopkins is more skilled then Chavez? Hopkins looked foolish against Bo James. Got out boxed by Segundo Mercado in their first fight, the first Allen fight Allen was getting the best of him. Hopkins has never impressed me till i seen him in against Echols in his second fight. Hopkins is over rated by many now a days.

[SquareCircle]

How did this turn inot an argument that Whitiker is more skilled?

All i said is that Whitiker had to cheat to beat Chavez. If you dont' think Chavez was as skilled as Whitiker if not more then you need to do your home work. I have never doubted Whitkers skills but many like to doubt Chavez skills so then i in turn talk trash with the holes that fight A or B has.

Are you implying that Hopkins is more skilled then Chavez? Hopkins looked foolish against Bo James. Got out boxed by Segundo Mercado in their first fight, the first Allen fight Allen was getting the best of him. Hopkins has never impressed me till i seen him in against Echols in his second fight. Hopkins is over rated by many now a days.

hopkins and whitaker were much more skilled than chavez man. of course they were, they're technicians! Chavez is more of a warrior who'll take it on the chin and keep coming, and chavez packs more of a punch, that's where his advantages lie

......and what hopkins did, at his age, vs Jermain taylor, if that didn't make you realize how great he is then ...whatever.

[ferocity]

hopkins and whitaker were much more skilled than chavez man. of course they were, they're technicians! Chavez is more of a warrior who'll take it on the chin and keep coming, and chavez packs more of a punch, that's where his advantages lie

......and what hopkins did, at his age, vs Jermain taylor, if that didn't make you realize how great he is then ...whatever.

Hopkins never had the repeated wars Chavez did so of course his body is more preserved then Chavez battle worn fights.

But Hopkins more skilled then Chavez, thats your opinon, one that i laugh at but thats your opinon.

If Hopkins showed more heart and fire....if Hopkins would have dug down deep like a true great warrrior,no doubt he would have beat Taylor, but Hopkins didn't have it in him and was worried of himself getting ko'd. Hopkins on his bicyle is a techniquen, but Delahoya on his bicyle against Trinidad is a chiken, ok, i see the double standards.