Analysing all GGG's world titles

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  • Citizen Koba
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    #111
    Originally posted by QueensburyRules
    - -Not really.

    Canelo was in the middle of a civil suit with massive financial repercussions.

    Fact-GGG majorly FAILED when he petitioned to get Canelo suspended by Vegas over ghost nanograms of a legal substance found in the Mexican food chain that didn't even meet VADA fail standards.

    GGG don't deserve the trilogy, and I say that as a fan of both. He was ill advised by Loeffler to now pay the price fighting duds.
    The bolded there is one of the few times I've seen folk acknowledge the official reason given by Oscar for why Canelo ceased negotiations back in 2016... usually folk talk about Canelo refusing to give in to Golovkins demand for a mandatory split which was never an offical reason given for the fight not happening at the time, but rather something fans ran with after a coupla of ambiguous and unspecific comments made by Canelo somewhat earlier.

    The trace amounts of Clenbuterol were in fact substantially higher the most commonly recorded instances attributed to meat contamination (though I ain't familiar with the scientific measure known as a 'ghost' so I couldn't say although there was less than a nanogram), although still within a range at which meat contamination is a reasonable likelihood. They were also within the range expected from a the****utic dose or course of Clenbuterol which had ceased maybe a week or two earlier.

    WADA fail standards are anything above zero, except where meat contamination is a reasonable possibility. Canelo's levels would have failed anywhere other than Mexico, Guatamala or China, even under the current WADA code, but the updated threshold for those countries is simply a reflection of the impossibility of proving intent below certain levels not an indication of a likelihood of a lack of intent.


    Oh. And by the way, whilst I understand that Clenbuterol can be legally bought from pharmacies in Mexico it's use in the meat production industry is illegal in Mexico and pretty much everywhere else where even rudimentary legislation on food standards exists. It doesn't particularly have a bearing here, but just FYI.

    IDK whether Golovkin deserves the trilogy or not, and besides matchmaking in boxing has little if anything to do with who deserves what, but on a persoanal level I also have no particular need to see a trilogy fight.
    Last edited by Citizen Koba; 01-24-2020, 10:03 AM.

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    • DreamFighter
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      #112
      Originally posted by Koba-Grozny
      By that token it is valid when there isn't a more highly regarded tile by the same organisation then? I couldn't agree more. That's what I've been saying all along.
      well i'm not, you just want it to be that way so that you have a point.

      Furthermore I don't recall folk drawing a particular distinction between titles won off a titleholder and those gained through elevation from interim status in the past... guys such as Jean Pascal, Keth Thurman, Marcos Maidana and Erislandy Lara under the WBA or Roy Jones or Sergio Martinez under the WBC... to name just some.
      of course its wrong. As wrong as you are to claim Martinez was elevated without winning it from Pavlik, as wrong as you are to claim Jones wasnt a real world champion since he had 2 other belts.

      Elevation in the ring counts for nothing, that doesnt mean the other belts they won in the ring dont count, thats a ridiculous argument.

      I'm curious why you're particularly interested in making this distinction for Gennady Golovkin?
      proven fact thats i'm not, my question is why you want it so bad to be so?
      Last edited by DreamFighter; 01-24-2020, 10:13 AM.

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      • Zaroku
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        #113
        great stuff guys... my meth pipe needs some shards of meth or something.. lmao... i do not drink, or smoke illegal stuff in japan....

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        • Citizen Koba
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          #114
          Originally posted by DreamFighter
          well i'm not, you just want it to be that way so that you have a point.

          of course its wrong. As wrong as you are to claim Martinez was elevated without winning it from Pavlik, as wrong as you are to claim Jones wasnt a real world champion since he had 2 other belts.

          Elevation in the ring counts for nothing, that doesnt mean the other belts they won in the ring dont count, thats a ridiculous argument.

          proven fact thats i'm not, my question is why you want it so bad to be so?

          Martinez at 154, man, he was an interim elevated after Forrest was stripped. And I never said Roy hadn't been a legitimate champion in other divisions already - although the WBC (the one he immediately lost then regained off Griffin) was his first at 175 , merely that I've never seen anyone say that his WBC LHW title wasn't valid because he didn't win it 'in the ring' which is what you seem to be claiming.

          And as to me 'wanting it to be so' it's cos I like Golovkin and I find it puzzling the lengths folk are going to to seemingly denigrate his career, although if criticisms are genuine (and there are several that can be levelled at GGG) I will acknowledge them.

          Thing is as far as I'm concerned as long as you apply the same standards consistently across the board, to guys like RJJ and Maidana and Lara and so forth it's fair to apply them to GGG too... if you don't then you gotta admit it looks a little like bias. And the title record thing... well I still say 15, but if you want to say 8 or whatever you came to that's cool as long as you don't count anyone else's defenses of the 'regular' title... which is effect saying that it isn't a title. Either you recognise it as a legitimate title as long as there is no incumbent Super champion which would give Golovkin 15 defenses or you acknowledge that no other holder of the WBA is legitimate unless they hold the super title, so dudes like Broner, Maidana, Sergio and many others.

          The problem here is you're trying to do both - say GGG was only legitimate when he was Super champ, but allowing that others were legitimate when they were regular. it's the double standard that I'm objecting too. Sort that out and I'll trouble you no more.
          Last edited by Citizen Koba; 01-24-2020, 11:08 AM.

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          • AKAcronym
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            #115
            Originally posted by Koba-Grozny
            Martinez at 154, man, he was an interim elevated after Forrest was stripped. And I never said Roy hadn't been a legitimate champion in other divisions already - although the WBC was his first at 175, merely that I've never seen anyone say that his WBC LHW title wasn't valid because he didn't win it 'in the ring' which is what you seem to be claiming.

            And as to me 'wanting it to be so' it's cos I like Golovkin and I find it puzzling the lengths folk are going to to seemingly denigrate his career, although if criticisms are genuine (and there are several that can be levelled at GGG) I will acknowledge them.

            Thing is as far as I'm concerned as long as you apply the same standards consistently across the board, to guys like RJJ and Maidana and Lara and so forth it's fair to apply them to GGG too... if you don't then you gotta admit it looks a little like bias. And the title record thing... well I still say 15, but if you want to say 8 or whatever you came to that's cool as long as you don't count anyone else's defenses of the 'regular' title... which is effect saying that it isn't a title. Either you recognise it as a legitimate title as long as there is no incumbent Super champion which would give Golovkin 15 defenses or you acknowledge that no other holder of the WBA is legitimate unless they hold the super title, so dudes like Broner, Maidana, Sergio and many others.

            The problem here is you're trying to do both - say GGG was only legitimate when he was Super champ, but allowing that others were legitimate when they were regular. it's the double standard that I'm objecting too. Sort that out and I'll trouble you no more.
            He still has some other stuff to figure out. He thinks that Golovkin "capitulating" to Canelo in the rematch, is somehow the same as Canelo actually capitulating the WBC belt. I don't know how someone capitulates something in the ring by losing a close decision.

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            • Citizen Koba
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              #116
              Originally posted by AKAcronym
              He still has some other stuff to figure out. He thinks that Golovkin "capitulating" to Canelo in the rematch, is somehow the same as Canelo actually capitulating the WBC belt. I don't know how someone capitulates something in the ring by losing a close decision.
              Maybe he could use a dictionary?

              Thing is my objection is really just his lack of consistency. He's basically looking at the information in every way possible that will diminish GGGs accomplishments without seeming to realise that to avoid being seen as blatantly biased he needs to apply the same standards to every other fighter, past and present, too. Dude slavishly follows the letter of the sanctioning orgs when it suits his position then completely disregards them when it doesn't. Ain't even like the SOs are consistent enough to be taken seriously anyway, cept in more recent years maybe the IBF.

              IDK man, it makes no sense to me, all I can surmise is it's something to do with the ****** fanbase rivalries on here.
              Last edited by Citizen Koba; 01-24-2020, 11:30 AM.

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              • AKAcronym
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                #117
                Originally posted by Koba-Grozny
                Maybe he could use a dictionary?

                Thing is my objection is really just his lack of consistency. He's basically looking at the information in every way possible that will diminish GGGs accomplishments without seeming to realise that to avoid being seen as blatantly biased he needs to apply the same standards to every other fighter, past and present, too.

                IDK man, it makes no sense to me, all I can surmise is it's something to do with the ****** fanbase rivalries on here.
                It would help him if he did use one. Yeah I've been reading his posts for however long now and he surely isn't consistent. I'm a Golovkin fan but I can realize times where he and his team ****ed up. Acting as if his whole career was somehow his doing though, is clearly a major stretch.

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                • Citizen Koba
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                  #118
                  Originally posted by AKAcronym
                  It would help him if he did use one. Yeah I've been reading his posts for however long now and he surely isn't consistent. I'm a Golovkin fan but I can realize times where he and his team ****ed up. Acting as if his whole career was somehow his doing though, is clearly a major stretch.
                  It's bizarre, man. I level criticisms at GGG and his team all the time, more than any other fighter in fact - although there's plenty others could be criticised for the exact same things - but I figure I got the right exactly cos I am a fan. Problem some of these idiots think unless you're actually calling him an abject sniveling coward you're some kinda super fanboy. Weird.

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                  • AKAcronym
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                    #119
                    Originally posted by Koba-Grozny
                    It's bizarre, man. I level criticisms at GGG and his team all the time, more than any other fighter in fact - although there's plenty others could be criticised for the exact same things - but I figure I got the right exactly cos I am a fan. Problem some of these idiots think unless you're actually calling him an abject sniveling coward you're some kinda super fanboy. Weird.
                    It really is. I'm trying to not even bother posting as much anymore because it's clear you aren't going to change the minds of some of these guys, or to even get them to think a little differently.

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                    • Citizen Koba
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                      #120
                      Originally posted by AKAcronym
                      It really is. I'm trying to not even bother posting as much anymore because it's clear you aren't going to change the minds of some of these guys, or to even get them to think a little differently.
                      Same, I guess. I got plenty of other fighters I follow and posting about Golovkin's an exercise in futility at this point in time, everyone's already decided where they stand and arguing with folk just makes 'em dig their heels in more. That's just how people are.


                      Thing is you can't even talk about him neutrally or tangentially without someone getting excited about it... made a very general point about how US promoters these days are more likely to fast track the older ammys coming out of the ex-Soviets and all of a sudden I was being a Golovkin 'cum guzzler'.

                      Some of these dudes are so involved in their silly fanboy bullish they just assume everyone else is thinking the same way.

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