Lineal Heavyweight title is "bull****"?

[soul_survivor]

Curious, if you're well aware all division come from the HW division why recognize lineages of these divisions given they can't have anything to do with a time before formalized weight divisions?

Or, to ask that a bit differently, outside of HW, when to other weight division lineages begin? The first man to claim a title at the weight in numbers or the weight in words? I mean, what's LW 135? let's just say it is anyway, is the first LW champion the first 135 or the first guy to claim lightweight champion?

As far as Marciano being the lineal champion, if he returned to boxing he would be. If Marciano's zombie ass came up out the dirt and said he's champion because no one ever beat him in the ring he'd only be doing what Corbett did only, you know, on a ridiculous time scale from beyond the grave.

You don't recognize the Maher, Fitz, Sharkey, Langford, Godfrey lineage do you? Of those guys the only HW champion or at least lineal HW champion is Fitzsimmons right?

But they won the title, they had the belt, they were called champion....until Corbet unretired and stripped them only to lose to Fitz.

So if Corbett can do it then why not Jeffries, Tunney, Marciano, Lewis, or Fury?

edit- quick note on Jeffries, I realize he didn't claim the title on his return, but, if he felt so inclined why couldn't he but Corbett could?

I'll reply to this when I have more time. Just quoting so I dont forget

[Boxing Goat]

HBO was no longer #1 when Kovalev resigned, which is why he had no confidence they could win the purse bid. Regardless, it still doesn't explain demanding to be made mandatory, demanding 50/50, and then when Stevenson agrees, refusing to do the fight. And then lying and saying your HBO contract prevents it, even though your HBO contract has already expired.

Fans never want to accept the truth when it's their fighter that ducked, but facts are facts. Stevenson accepted the fight. Kovalev ducked.




No it doesn't go both ways. When Stevenson switched to Showtime in hopes of fighting Bernard Hopkins, Hopkins was rated above Kovalev and considered the more dangerous fight. Hopkins had the IBF belt and was about to win the WBA belt. Kovalev still only had the less regarded WBO version.

Stevenson was a restricted free agent and had an obligation to present an offer to HBO to either match or not match. HBO let Showtime win over a measly 50k.

It's not "ducking" when HBO refuses to do the fight. It's not "ducking" to choose what's considered the tougher fight, against a bigger name, for more belts.

It is ducking to demand a fight, be given everything you asked for, and then still refuse to fight.

I ended our conversation in my prior post

Farewell

[soul_survivor]

Curious, if you're well aware all division come from the HW division why recognize lineages of these divisions given they can't have anything to do with a time before formalized weight divisions?

Or, to ask that a bit differently, outside of HW, when to other weight division lineages begin? The first man to claim a title at the weight in numbers or the weight in words? I mean, what's LW 135? let's just say it is anyway, is the first LW champion the first 135 or the first guy to claim lightweight champion?

As far as Marciano being the lineal champion, if he returned to boxing he would be. If Marciano's zombie ass came up out the dirt and said he's champion because no one ever beat him in the ring he'd only be doing what Corbett did only, you know, on a ridiculous time scale from beyond the grave.

You don't recognize the Maher, Fitz, Sharkey, Langford, Godfrey lineage do you? Of those guys the only HW champion or at least lineal HW champion is Fitzsimmons right?

But they won the title, they had the belt, they were called champion....until Corbet unretired and stripped them only to lose to Fitz.

So if Corbett can do it then why not Jeffries, Tunney, Marciano, Lewis, or Fury?

edit- quick note on Jeffries, I realize he didn't claim the title on his return, but, if he felt so inclined why couldn't he but Corbett could?

Ok....you seem confused. At what stage did Corbett regain the belt? I am lost as to what you are trying to say here. There are a splurge of ideas but they are all over the place, maybe type them up in a cohesive manner.

As for the HW lineage, no it does not extend for all time and lal places but itself is differntiated at times from heavyweight chamionships (in particular as the WBC/WBA and later IBF fractured the division).

That however is an ENTIRELY discussion to what my thread is, which is, the first fight was heavily marketed as WBC v Lineal Championship....whatever that means. Wilder kept talking about going for the lineal crown and those of you who supported that claim went ape **** over it. NOw that Wilder himself has labelled lineal as BS, I am asking where are all those posters now?

90% of them, red prick, american **** ass etc have avoided this thread like the plague. if you wish to speak on their behalf, maybe get them in the thread lol

[N/A]

I ended our conversation in my prior post

Farewell

Yes, I am aware that the facts aren't on your side, but you're too much of a coward to admit it.

[billeau2]

" I don't know why the lineal can't exist in its own place "

it can, and does...




" why it must either be totally accurate, or not in effect "

because... something that is not accurate, is shlt...

that applies to business, politics, relationships, sport... and, life in general

accuracy is everything

and, the Canelo example was not inaccurate... it was ridiculous

same as the Briggs example, that is ridiculous

same as many others

I certainly understand that things can be abused. I don't know if this has to do with the accuracy of the actual title.

Again I see the point but, for reasons stated and examples given, do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lineal type titles have upheld institutions that are venerable, useful and accurate. From a universal stand point they certainly have merit.

Perhaps in boxing the examples that M gives serve to remind us there have been issues with the mechanism. I would concede the point, as I did to M that yes we need authorities. My view has changed to be more sympathetic to the best of these sanctioning bodies... vis a vis, I always knew we needed them to a degree, but see their value as being greater based on M's historical research. I also have a more sober understanding of the lineal.

I would also see the lineal as primarily for the heavyweights...I do not know about Canelo and Briggs as I hope you do not think I gave them as an example of something.

[billeau2]

riiiiiiight, so...

one man, punching another man... with his fists... while evading the other mans blows... back then

is totally unrelated to... one man, punching another man... with his fists... while evading the other mans blows... now



uh, I will go with the experts on that one

This point of contention between you two is complicated. Ultimately some cultures provided documentation of combatives/sports and others did not. Certainly Greece would have had a relationship to Egypt regarding boxing, as would the Romans. The problem comes with documents that can show what this art, this relationship produced in terms of champions, techniques, etc.

As a historian M can only use material that shows proof in the form of written works, and commentary. AGAIN martial arts has this problem in SPADES!! People constantly claim 'secret martial arts' then you ask them for proof, they cannot show a teacher, or a authenticated scroll detailing proof of a tradition.

You are both right about this lol! It is just that standards of proof used is different. Plato details how Egypt was a standard for much of Greek understanding. one day there might well be a document showing more of such regarding combatives.

[billeau2]

Because Anthony Joshua isn't the lineal champion, so it must be treated as worthless by the UK fanboys. Plain and simple. These are people that are pretending that the IBO is a recognized world championship. They are delusional.

Well... One thing is for sure: The lineal inspires people lol. It almost seems an emotional issue. i must admit that I am flumuxed... Why should the idea that the fans have a mechanism that is used, has been used when needed, and has even been coopted into other systems, inspire such contempt?

To me the very notion that the lineal is as valid as the fans want it to be, is a good thing. It gives the fans power. And why should the fact that the lineal is brought up selectively be a bad thing? Look...If Michael Spinks being the lineal and Tyson being the champ for the major alphabets is cooky, then the lineal for that point in time can be unimportant. I don't see a big deal.

On the other hand, when a mandatory is s h it which happens many times, and the lineal makes perfect sense, what is bad about evoking it? Because it has been flawed in the past?

anyhow these are rhetorical questions lol and not directed at anyone in particular.

[aboutfkntime]

I certainly understand that things can be abused. I don't know if this has to do with the accuracy of the actual title.

Again I see the point but, for reasons stated and examples given, do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lineal type titles have upheld institutions that are venerable, useful and accurate. From a universal stand point they certainly have merit.

Perhaps in boxing the examples that M gives serve to remind us there have been issues with the mechanism. I would concede the point, as I did to M that yes we need authorities. My view has changed to be more sympathetic to the best of these sanctioning bodies... vis a vis, I always knew we needed them to a degree, but see their value as being greater based on M's historical research. I also have a more sober understanding of the lineal.

I would also see the lineal as primarily for the heavyweights...I do not know about Canelo and Briggs as I hope you do not think I gave them as an example of something.

this is utterly ridiculous, look...

to remedy a problem of inaccuracy, within boxing... FANS (not anyone with a clue, just fans) instituted a solution that is (by your own admission)... inaccurate

what the fcuk... ?

so, instead of having 4 inaccurate opinions, you think we should have 5?



this is utterly ridiculous to me

in business... if you initiate a process or policy that is "inaccurate"... you get fired, and are deemed a failure

the Canelo example, and the Briggs example... should be enough of an indication of failure to end this discussion

I think ranking by lineage is utterly fkn ridiculous, and simply cannot be justified

we can agree to disagree

[N/A]

Well... One thing is for sure: The lineal inspires people lol. It almost seems an emotional issue.

When lineal champions abuse the honor, people rightfully get emotional. Fury sitting out so long and fighting so many lowly regarded opponents since his return has shined a bright light on the negatives of the lineal championship. So that's one reason why people are being emotional.

The other though is that Wilder is on the verge of becoming undisputed lineal champion (had he beaten Fury in 2018, there were some who would claim Fury wasn't lineal champion and they weren't the top 2 fighters to fill the vacancy). Joshua fans are feeling some type of way about Joshua having been knocked out and Wilder now potentially being the clear cut lineal champion. Drives them crazy.

[Marchegiano]

Ok....you seem confused. At what stage did Corbett regain the belt? I am lost as to what you are trying to say here. There are a splurge of ideas but they are all over the place, maybe type them up in a cohesive manner.

As for the HW lineage, no it does not extend for all time and lal places but itself is differntiated at times from heavyweight chamionships (in particular as the WBC/WBA and later IBF fractured the division).

That however is an ENTIRELY discussion to what my thread is, which is, the first fight was heavily marketed as WBC v Lineal Championship....whatever that means. Wilder kept talking about going for the lineal crown and those of you who supported that claim went ape **** over it. NOw that Wilder himself has labelled lineal as BS, I am asking where are all those posters now?

90% of them, red prick, american **** ass etc have avoided this thread like the plague. if you wish to speak on their behalf, maybe get them in the thread lol

Okay, I got you bud.

I still participate in p4p discussions too but it is meaningless when there are unified/undisputed champions. I think p4p would be meaningless in the face of an undisputed heavyweight champion as it was for so long in the 20th century. As the heavyweight division splintered, p4p discussions and rankings became ever more important.

Btw, when it comes to lineal titles, in any division, I am not against these. I understand the significance, my point is that:

I had asked why you recognize divisional lineages under HW if you're well aware they all actually go to the HW division? HW splintered but it was not formal for years and so you've competing divisions for a time, I assumed you're aware. So I fathered the question by asking who you side with, or, how you decide where the start of a lineage that isn't HW is. I use LW as an example.

I understand the confusion, what I'm speaking to has little to do with the point you made, but, the vehicle you used to deliver that point made me curious of your opinions...it is an honest curiosity, I'm not leading into to an argument.

A. Fury can not be holder of any title after failing drug tests, being banned and retiring. If that were the case Rocky Marciano should still be recognised as lineal champ.

Marciano is still the lineal champion, as is Fury, as are Tunney, and Lennox. Marciano would have the ability to strip all those who came after him. If he, or Fury, cannot then why did Jim Corbett do just that?

Jim Corbett retired unbeaten. There were no bodies at the time and boxing was ruled by "champions prerogative". Which in this case means it was Corbett's job to list the guys who would fight for his title. He chose his pupil Steve O'Donnell and fan favorite Peter Maher. Maher KO's O'Donnell, Corbett gives a farewell speech and hands over his title to Maher. Maher then gets KO'd by Fitzsimmons who loses by DQ to Tom Sharkey. Corbett returns to boxing, reclaimed his title without fighting anyone, and makes a fight with Fitzs, Fitzs KO's him, Fitzs is champion. Maher and Sharkey are not now considered having ever been lineal champions despite being awarded the title after winning a fight.

CP would come again upon the retirement of Jeffries. He chose Root and Hart. Hart is still considered a champion. It isn't because Corbett chose Maher, it's because Corbett returned and claimed his title.

CP would also be used from James Figg's era through to Jeffries with the most notable abuser of it being Jem Ward who retired and reclaimed his title, stripping those who won it after him, no less than five times.

It was how the retirement of a lineal was dealt with prior to bodies.

I am curious, after this explanation, why it is you believe a lineal can be stripped for drugs or banned from the sport? Those are sanctioning body actions that have nothing to do and were never done prior to sanctioning bodies. What does lineal have to do with bodies? It's meant to be the title without body influence is it not? Forcing a champion to fight for his title upon his return rather than simply awarding it back to him upon his announcement for a return is a body action not a lineal action.

Looking to lineal traditions there is grounds for champions returning after retirement, stripping any who gained their title while they were away, and regaining recognition of their title without fighting, but, there is absolutely no lineal champion prior to sanctioning bodies who had ever been told they are not champion because they retired once. ever.


I'm not saying a champion should be able to retire and regain their title just by saying they want to work again. I'm saying that is the way it has been and adding body elements to the lineal just falsely grandizes the title while stripping the bodies of some of their few good traits.

B. Americans on here, in the build up to the first fight labelled it a unification and a fight for the lineal title, based mainly on Wilder's proclamations and the promotion itself. Now that the lineal rubbish has taken a backseat, I am just curious if they still believe in it.

As much as I ever did. It's not a body belt but it's better than Ring and TBRB nonsense. It's my favorite nonofficial and will be regardless of who has it.