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One by one...
These were Canelo's first tests under the testing window for the GGG fight and came earlier than expected. The last tests before that would have been the fight night tests the previous September. Plenty of time to have cycled on and off, also plenty of time to have eaten contaminated meat though...
Yes all drugs have a testing threshold based on the minimum accuracy of the testing equipment (EDIT: which can vary from testing centre to testing centre so they have to base the MRPL on their least accurate machines) and other factors known as an MRPL it's 200pg/ml for Clenbuterol but the bolded is significant. :
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/defau...1_finaleng.pdf
the actual llimits of detectability for Clenbuterol with the best equipment are in the range 1 - 10pg/ml as best I recall though I'd have to search out that citation if you need it (for reference Canelo's first reading was 600 - 800pg/ml, his second was 60-80pg/ml and most foreign U17 football players with presumed meat contamination fell under the 200pg/ml level)
However Clenbuterol is also a non threshold substance under WADA protocols, as you can see on the list on the PDF (table 1) which means that any detected level can result in an adverse finding, which is actually what I was refering to. If you watch the video in one of the posts with Dr Boer which Mr Widdit helpfully provides he does actually confirm that even 1pg/ml (EDIT: I intially put 1ng/ml by accident) of Clenbuterol can provoke an adverse finding... though he does raise the question of whether that should be changed (although without giving an opinion on the matter).
So yeah. That's point one and two...
Now. The WADA stakeholder notice on Clenbuterol which I said only effected certain countries and you dispute. Let's have a look.
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resource...on-1-june-2019
Check the PDF:
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/defau...tice_final.pdf
So yeah. You get an ATF (atypical finding) - not a negative as you say - below 5000pg/ml but if you're outside Mexico, China or Guatamala then this will be returned as an ADRV and you will be punished accordingly no matter if it's 200pg/ml (or lower) or 4000pg/ml. If you're from Mexico guatamala or China you will be investigated further, but all yous gotta do is tell em you ate the meat and when.
Understand this is not a proof of innocence, nor is it a proof of guilt it's merely a codification of what the WADA have said all along:
https://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...taminated-meat
Fortunately as referenced in the quotes above research is ongoing under Dr Detlief Thieme funded by WADA to establish a reliable discriminatory hair strand test... I can link you all the relevent articles on that too if you like... though unfortunately testing redheads is always gonna be problematic because they have a different type of melanin to the rest of us and melanin in hair is what the Clenbuterol binds to and what the hair strand tests depend on.
So yeah. Straight up. I ain't witch hunting Canelo.. I've said all along I simply don't know if he's guilty of deliberate use or not.... thing is neither do VADA or the WBC. The threshold limits they've set are a matter of expedience... above the 5000pg/ml level it's virtually certain to be due to PED use, below that level it's impossible to tell, because without knowing when the drug entered the body you can't tell the initial dose. Basically they've chosen to err on the side of protecting innocent athletes.
So. Now. Talking outta my ass huh? Ask me any damn question about this shit you like and I'll do my best to answer... with references. And if you want me to expand or expound on any of the ish I've already (rather hurridly) typed I can do that as well if I ain't explained myself clearly enough. So far I've only referenced a small part of evrything I've read on the subject over the last year or so. We can look at all the available research on the pharmacokinetics of Clenbuterol (in ****, cattle and horses as well as humans if you like - yeah, I did indeed wade through the research docs about Clen use in racehorses fffs - I am that anal
), half lives in drugs in general and why it is that Clenbuterol use can't be timestamped as many other drugs can... if fact hell, hit me up. This is a work of scholarship for me, if I've drawn faulty conclusions I would rather know about it than make an ass of myself and if your questions help me to learn more about it then it's time well spent.
These were Canelo's first tests under the testing window for the GGG fight and came earlier than expected. The last tests before that would have been the fight night tests the previous September. Plenty of time to have cycled on and off, also plenty of time to have eaten contaminated meat though...
Yes all drugs have a testing threshold based on the minimum accuracy of the testing equipment (EDIT: which can vary from testing centre to testing centre so they have to base the MRPL on their least accurate machines) and other factors known as an MRPL it's 200pg/ml for Clenbuterol but the bolded is significant. :
The MRPL is the minimum concentration of a Prohibited Substance or Metabolite of a Prohibited Substance or Marker of a Prohibited Substance or Method that Laboratories shall be able to reliably detectand identify in routine daily operations.•The MRPL is not a threshold (T) nor is it a Limit of Detection (LOD). Adverse Analytical Findings may result from concentrations below the established MRPL values; •MRPL values are relevant for the detection and identification of Non-Threshold Substances; they do not apply to Threshold Substances, which are covered in other Technical Documents (e.g.TD DL1, TD GH2); •MRPL values are established taking into account the metabolism, stability, pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the Prohibited Substance. Thus, substances with a long-term doping effect which are prohibited at all times (e.g.anabolic steroids) will have lower MRPL values than substances which are taken for an immediate ergogenic effect and are prohibited In-Competitiononly (e.g.stimulants);
the actual llimits of detectability for Clenbuterol with the best equipment are in the range 1 - 10pg/ml as best I recall though I'd have to search out that citation if you need it (for reference Canelo's first reading was 600 - 800pg/ml, his second was 60-80pg/ml and most foreign U17 football players with presumed meat contamination fell under the 200pg/ml level)
However Clenbuterol is also a non threshold substance under WADA protocols, as you can see on the list on the PDF (table 1) which means that any detected level can result in an adverse finding, which is actually what I was refering to. If you watch the video in one of the posts with Dr Boer which Mr Widdit helpfully provides he does actually confirm that even 1pg/ml (EDIT: I intially put 1ng/ml by accident) of Clenbuterol can provoke an adverse finding... though he does raise the question of whether that should be changed (although without giving an opinion on the matter).
So yeah. That's point one and two...
Now. The WADA stakeholder notice on Clenbuterol which I said only effected certain countries and you dispute. Let's have a look.
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resource...on-1-june-2019
Check the PDF:
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/defau...tice_final.pdf
b. Investigative Steps When an ADO with results management authority receives a report for an ATF from a Laboratory for clenbuterol, it shall follow the investigative steps indicated below:
1. Ask the athlete whether they were recently in Mexico, China or Guatemala and if so, whether they ate meat (including the type of meat, when and where it was eaten, and the quantity consumed). Although it is not expected that all athletes will recollect all of these facts perfectly, the ADO will evaluate the athlete’s explanation and any evidence tendered to corroborate this explanation
2. If the ADO is satisfied that the athlete recently ate meat in Mexico, China or Guatemala, it must then evaluate whether the analytical result is consistent with the consumption of meat estimated by the athlete by considering the excretion properties of the substance as described in the scientific literature. The ADO should also consider whether the athlete recently provided other samples to rule out the possibility that the low level of clenbuterol detected is not the result of the tail end of the excretion of the substance as a result of the previous use of a performance-enhancing dose;
1. Ask the athlete whether they were recently in Mexico, China or Guatemala and if so, whether they ate meat (including the type of meat, when and where it was eaten, and the quantity consumed). Although it is not expected that all athletes will recollect all of these facts perfectly, the ADO will evaluate the athlete’s explanation and any evidence tendered to corroborate this explanation
2. If the ADO is satisfied that the athlete recently ate meat in Mexico, China or Guatemala, it must then evaluate whether the analytical result is consistent with the consumption of meat estimated by the athlete by considering the excretion properties of the substance as described in the scientific literature. The ADO should also consider whether the athlete recently provided other samples to rule out the possibility that the low level of clenbuterol detected is not the result of the tail end of the excretion of the substance as a result of the previous use of a performance-enhancing dose;
Understand this is not a proof of innocence, nor is it a proof of guilt it's merely a codification of what the WADA have said all along:
https://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...taminated-meat
WADA have no "magic solution" to know if clenbuterol positives are due to doping or contaminated meat
WADA senior executive director, for sciences and international partnerships, Olivier Rabin, insists that a full investigation must be carried out for every single case.
Hair analysis can also reveal the level and duration of exposure - which is helpful is indicating whether contamination is likely even it does not definitively prove anything.
"We are running some studies to try to distinguish but we don't have a magic solution today," Rabin told insidethegames here at the WADA Symposium.
"Our advantage is that this only happens in a few countries.
"First of all, we ask testing authorities to run an investigation for every single case.
Hair analysis can also reveal the level and duration of exposure - which is helpful is indicating whether contamination is likely even it does not definitively prove anything.
"We are running some studies to try to distinguish but we don't have a magic solution today," Rabin told insidethegames here at the WADA Symposium.
"Our advantage is that this only happens in a few countries.
"First of all, we ask testing authorities to run an investigation for every single case.
So yeah. Straight up. I ain't witch hunting Canelo.. I've said all along I simply don't know if he's guilty of deliberate use or not.... thing is neither do VADA or the WBC. The threshold limits they've set are a matter of expedience... above the 5000pg/ml level it's virtually certain to be due to PED use, below that level it's impossible to tell, because without knowing when the drug entered the body you can't tell the initial dose. Basically they've chosen to err on the side of protecting innocent athletes.
So. Now. Talking outta my ass huh? Ask me any damn question about this shit you like and I'll do my best to answer... with references. And if you want me to expand or expound on any of the ish I've already (rather hurridly) typed I can do that as well if I ain't explained myself clearly enough. So far I've only referenced a small part of evrything I've read on the subject over the last year or so. We can look at all the available research on the pharmacokinetics of Clenbuterol (in ****, cattle and horses as well as humans if you like - yeah, I did indeed wade through the research docs about Clen use in racehorses fffs - I am that anal
), half lives in drugs in general and why it is that Clenbuterol use can't be timestamped as many other drugs can... if fact hell, hit me up. This is a work of scholarship for me, if I've drawn faulty conclusions I would rather know about it than make an ass of myself and if your questions help me to learn more about it then it's time well spent.
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