Is Spence a top 5 p4p fighter?

[Boxing_1013]

Your 1st paragraph-You dropped Spence in your p4p rankings because he won 12-0 instead over Mikey instead of a KO win. Now you want to drop him more spots because he came back to win a tougher than expected fight by winning the last 3 rds-including getting a KD. That is mind numbing to me.

Errol didn't let him inside-Shawn worked to get in. I mean he was the WBC WW champ and a top 4 ww overall. He isn't a bum. That he outperformed expectations doesn't mean Spence underperformed. Instead of a boxing clinic he put on a display of heart and guts.

Maybe, instead of focusing on how he didn't meet pre fight expectations, the focus should be on what he did show. He showed a solid jab, he showed good power and punching. He also showed weak defense which is a fair criticism. He wasn't perfect by any means and definitely can improve in some areas.

The issue I have with your post-Spence is fighting better quality WW's now. Why would we expect him to perform better against top tier ww's than we would lower tier? What boxer does that? Every so often you get the rare Tyson/Spinks or Hearns/Duran destruction when top level guys fight. Otherwise you get tough fights that tend to end in UD's.

I think a boxer deserves more credit for a tough 12 rd SD win than a 2 rd destruction of some weak ass opponent. Even in the case of Mikey, no he didn't KO him but beat him 12-0 on all cards, including 1 10-8 round. Maybe your stanfard is just a tad bit too high. LOL!!

To put another way/continue on the GGG-Jacobs angle -

After that fight, my thoughts were (pretty much in order): 1) wow I can't believe Danny's chin held up

2) I wonder if GGG is aging/his power is waning/not as advertised/Danny's chin is better than expected

3) Danny fought a good fight, didn't know he could move like that on his feet

4) GGG still won pretty clearly for me/Danny just came to go 12 rounds, but had some good moments

5) Good fight, better guy won, not really that close imo...GGG showed a good chin as well...Danny just didn't really do enough to take it.

Most of my thoughts about that fight were positive for Danny...and then neutral/positive or even a little negative for GGG.

For Spence/Porter my thoughts were:

1) wow I can't believe Porter made that a close fight

2) can't believe Porter was able to impose his will on Spence at times...thought Spence's jab and power would be better than that

3) right man won...Spence did some good body work throughout the fight, showed good chin, stamina, toughness and heart.

4) Spence's jab was not what I was expecting...2nd fight in a row where I was underwhelmed with his performance...I was expecting a clinical performance from him vs Porter and didn't see that...he did not look very comfortable in there at all which was surprising.

5) good win for Spence, he got the job done but after this fight I now favor Crawford against him.

6) disappointed I didn't see any real clinical rounds from Spence...disappointed he allowed Porter to turn it into a dog fight, and dog fights are almost always close/back and forth affairs.

Basically similar sentiments to GGG-Jacobs, where it was mainly positive for the underdog and negative/neutral/positive for the favorite.

Difference for me in those fights is Spence never had a few great clinical rounds vs Porter...almost every round was a dog fight round...and when you allow your opponent to enforce his gameplan every round, it doesn't mean you lost necessarily...but it doesn't really look good for you and it turned this one into a close fight where Spence had difficulty really extending himself and difficulty having great moments/rounds...he allowed Porter into the fight way too much imo

[Combat Talk Radio]

Well if I'm going by eye test then I would have to leave that guy unranked, considering I have never watched him throw one punch before.

What does that matter? They're equivalent in the types of levels they're dominating. Menayothin hasn't faced a true threat either. So he looks outright dominant against everyone he's been paired against. Including the guy with 44 losses.

Same with Mario Barrios, same with Teofimo, same with Ryan Garcia, etc. Hell, Inoue is borderline, Luis Nery is borderline, Shakur is borderline, Tank is borderline, etc.

All these 'eye test' fighters are what I'm talking about. Being overrated as greats when they haven't faced true threats yet.

Chris Eubank Jr. is another one. One could argue that Saunders was a threat, but Groves was a much bigger threat from a skills perspective - and we saw what happened.

Badou Jack is another one - Stevenson was a threat, we saw what happened.

We can only know whether a fighter is truly P4P after they've been tested by a THREAT. Not by sparking or dominating fighters that don't belong in the ring with them.

[Boxing_1013]

What does that matter? They're equivalent in the types of levels they're dominating. Menayothin hasn't faced a true threat either. So he looks outright dominant against everyone he's been paired against. Including the guy with 44 losses.

Same with Mario Barrios, same with Teofimo, same with Ryan Garcia, etc. Hell, Inoue is borderline, Luis Nery is borderline, Shakur is borderline, Tank is borderline, etc.

All these 'eye test' fighters are what I'm talking about. Being overrated as greats when they haven't faced true threats yet.

Chris Eubank Jr. is another one. One could argue that Saunders was a threat, but Groves was a much bigger threat from a skills perspective - and we saw what happened.

Badou Jack is another one - Stevenson was a threat, we saw what happened.

We can only know whether a fighter is truly P4P after they've been tested by a THREAT. Not by sparking or dominating fighters that don't belong in the ring with them.

Dude with all due respect I think you are cherry-picking what constitutes a threat and what doesn't...Badou Jack was unproven at 175 but at 168 he had proven himself...he had a close fight with Adonis too, not like he got exposed or that anyone really expected him to win...to weather the first six rounds against Adonis and that left hand are not easy.

So yeah I think you are dismissing the good work TC has done in his career by lumping him in with some of those young prospects....if TC struggled more against the good comp he has been in with, then yeah I would agree the hype is probably not warranted.

I think he is a bit of victim of his success in a way...again Postol-Crawford was like 50/50 going in according to fans...TC killed him...Horn legit beat Pac in my eyes and TC handled Horn easily.

TC has done a lot of good stuff in his career to warrant a top pfp spot in this era imo...every fighter has pluses and minuses...hopefully we see TC in soon with some other good guys at 147 to better see his level.

[The Big Dunn]

To put another way/continue on the GGG-Jacobs angle -

After that fight, my thoughts were (pretty much in order): 1) wow I can't believe Danny's chin held up

2) I wonder if GGG is aging/his power is waning/not as advertised/Danny's chin is better than expected

3) Danny fought a good fight, didn't know he could move like that on his feet

4) GGG still won pretty clearly for me/Danny just came to go 12 rounds, but had some good moments

5) Good fight, better guy won, not really that close imo...GGG showed a good chin as well...Danny just didn't really do enough to take it.

Most of my thoughts about that fight were positive for Danny...and then neutral/positive or even a little negative for GGG.

For Spence/Porter my thoughts were:

1) wow I can't believe Porter made that a close fight

2) can't believe Porter was able to impose his will on Spence at times...thought Spence's jab and power would be better than that

3) right man won...Spence did some good body work throughout the fight, showed good chin, stamina, toughness and heart.

4) Spence's jab was not what I was expecting...2nd fight in a row where I was underwhelmed with his performance...I was expecting a clinical performance from him vs Porter and didn't see that...he did not look very comfortable in there at all which was surprising.

5) good win for Spence, he got the job done but after this fight I now favor Crawford against him.

6) disappointed I didn't see any real clinical rounds from Spence...disappointed he allowed Porter to turn it into a dog fight, and dog fights are almost always close/back and forth affairs.

Basically similar sentiments to GGG-Jacobs, where it was mainly positive for the underdog and negative/neutral/positive for the favorite.

Difference for me in those fights is Spence never had a few great clinical rounds vs Porter...almost every round was a dog fight round...and when you allow your opponent to enforce his gameplan every round, it doesn't mean you lost necessarily...but it doesn't really look good for you and it turned this one into a close fight where Spence had difficulty really extending himself and difficulty having great moments/rounds...he allowed Porter into the fight way too much imo

I get what you are saying. I just think certain guys have a way of making the fight an awkward, ugly fight. I think we can agree Floyd and Loma are much better than Maidana and Salido but Maidana/Salido were able to make the fights ugly, nasty brawls. If they can do that, I don't think it should be held against Spence that Porter could do the same to him.

I think part of what greatness is about winning when you are not at your best or when you are forced into the other guy's type of fight and you find a way to win. I don't think this type of win in any way makes the hype about Spence unfair or too much. IMO it solidified him as one of the best in the world.

[Boxing_1013]

I get what you are saying. I just think certain guys have a way of making the fight an awkward, ugly fight. I think we can agree Floyd and Loma are much better than Maidana and Salido but Maidana/Salido were able to make the fights ugly, nasty brawls. If they can do that, I don't think it should be held against Spence that Porter could do the same to him.

I think part of what greatness is about winning when you are not at your best or when you are forced into the other guy's type of fight and you find a way to win. I don't think this type of win in any way makes the hype about Spence unfair or too much. IMO it solidified him as one of the best in the world.

That's a fair point about Maidana/Salido...I look forward to Spence's next few fights to see how he does there...if he dominates/stops Danny I will be impressed and give him his due there.

[The Big Dunn]

Same here. Spence being discredited for some ambiguous expectation instead of the outcome doesn't make any damn sense.

Meanwhile Crawford gets major credit for low blowing Amir Khan because it's a knockout. Don't matter that Amir Khan isn't A class, doesn't matter that it wasn't a legit KO, doesn't matter that Khan was significantly damaged. Doesn't matter that Danny MF'n Garcia sparked a healthier Khan in LESS rounds and in dominant, clear fashion.

Crawford is getting participation credit while Spence isn't getting any, all because of the 'eye test'. It's BS

Yeah I really disagree strongly with the notion that anyone would drop Spence down on the list of p4p boxers based on winning fights. Now if he lost or won in a robbery, ok. A shutout win-come on that seems really unfair.

[The Big Dunn]

That's a fair point about Maidana/Salido...I look forward to Spence's next few fights to see how he does there...if he dominates/stops Danny I will be impressed and give him his due there.

I expect him to have an easier time with Danny than he did with Shawn. I don't know if he stops Danny.

You have to consider that as you fight better fighters, going for the KO puts you in more danger of losing. Top tier guys can throw counters and set traps you are not used to.

[techliam]

But what is the shame in being competitive with Brook? It was competitive until the half way mark where Spence took over and then started to beat him up. Again, fight top guys and you won't be seeing blowouts every time out. I expect Spence to beat DSG much cleaner next time out but it's okay to have some competitive fights against the best in the division.

SRL was one of the absolute greatest EVER yet his fights with Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler were all competitive. Of course those guys are better than the fighters Spence is fighting, but SRL is also levels above Spence.

Only a handful of fighters truly dominate top competition and even then you have some close calls.

There’s no shame whatsoever

My argument is consistent. Spence isn’t much better, if at all, than Porter (and Brook, Thurman, probably Garcia), and those are not great fighters.

Unless Porter is p4p no.6, I would find it difficult to justify Spence in the top 5 fighters in the sport. These welterweights are not pound for pound contenders, and so you would expect a top 5 fighter to have a bit more distance between them

[Combat Talk Radio]

I think part of what greatness is about winning when you are not at your best or when you are forced into the other guy's type of fight and you find a way to win. I don't think this type of win in any way makes the hype about Spence unfair or too much. IMO it solidified him as one of the best in the world.

Specifically BECAUSE of who he beat.

If that were Akhmedov or some other virtual unknown, the same couldn't be said. Because it matters the caliber of opposition.

[KTFOKING]

There’s no shame whatsoever

My argument is consistent. Spence isn’t much better, if at all, than Porter (and Brook, Thurman, probably Garcia), and those are not great fighters.

Unless Porter is p4p no.6, I would find it difficult to justify Spence in the top 5 fighters in the sport. These welterweights are not pound for pound contenders, and so you would expect a top 5 fighter to have a bit more distance between them

Again, if you don't rank him top 5 that is perfectly fine. But I saw Spence break down and take over vs Brook in the 2nd half of the fight. If it went to the scores, Spence would have been by 5+ points on two cards. We are moving goal posts now. If Spence fights all those guys and runs the table, then he is superior than them....As none of them could run the table.

Who did Usyk beat that is close to top 10 P4P? How about Lomachenko? Was Linares top 3 P4P fighter or something with Lomachenko being in such a tight fight with him?