Comments Thread For: WBC Doctor on Canelo: Everything Points To Contamination

[Raggamuffin]

This right here:

I don't know if it's meat contamination or if he was using. I do know he got caught.

Now correct me if I'm, wrong because I could be but weren't you screaming that Headvetkin was innocent because of the "trace amount" found in his system?

[UNBIASED BOXING]

What are your thought on the question of the apparently disproportional drop in Canelo's Clen concentrations between his first and second failed tests? If the figures are to be believed he dropped from 600 - 800pg to 60 - 80pg in 3 days... well, you do the math. Unless there's a really large difference between the rates of elimination in different individuals that doesn't add up. With a 36ish hour half life his concentrations should have dropped approximately fourfold in 72 hours, not tenfold.

That could have very well meant the .6 - .8 ng/ml detected in the plasma wasn't the first day of his cycle for clen. Meaning, the day he was tested, that dosage could have been the half life point in his cycle, or several hours past the maximum. We shouldn't expect that he took Clen literally right before the random drug test, although it is possible.

Does that make sense? I'm typing from a phone.

[aboutfkntime]

Did they say it was inconsistent with the****utic use?

no idea

hopefully there will be a real investigation

[Bashhh]

This is just another example that boxing is the most racist sport. If this was, Wilder, Spence, or Thurman they would be banned and stripped.

yeah right like they did povetkin and he had 1000 times less in trace amount than canelo had clen or when mayweather got caught with an iv in his vain and got cleared but bj penn from ufc got suspended and charged by the same organization that cleared floyd for the same thing.

[Jubei]

That could have very well meant the .6 - .8 ng/ml detected in the plasma wasn't the first day of his cycle for clen. Meaning, the day he was tested, that dosage could have been the half life point in his cycle, or several hours past the maximum. We shouldn't expect that he took Clen literally right before the random drug test, although it is possible.

Does that make sense? I'm typing from a phone.

Clenbuterol leaves your system completely after 4-5 days. That means its no more detected.

Lets say Canelo had his PED cycle up till the evening of the 15th, taking 80mg of Clenbuterol tablets (which is a regular higher sized dosis) twice a day for several days, was caught off guard and tested early morning, February 17th.

By taking ~80mg of Clenbuterol you are expected to plateau at over 1ng/ml in your urine sample.

Feb 16th about 1 ng/ml
Feb 17th 0.6 - 0.8 ng/ml (Same as Canelos first sample)
Feb 18th 0.3 - 0.5 ng/ml
Feb 19th 0.1 - 0.2 ng/ml
Feb 20th below 0.1 ng/ml (Same as Canelos 2nd sample)
Feb 21st below 0.01 ng/ml or maybe even "no more detectable"
Feb 22nd "no more detectable"



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4045696

That here basically shows you that the samples from Canelo perfectly line up with a regular PED cycle.

[Citizen Koba]

That could have very well meant the .6 - .8 ng/ml detected in the plasma wasn't the first day of his cycle for clen. Meaning, the day he was tested, that dosage could have been the half life point in his cycle, or several hours past the maximum. We shouldn't expect that he took Clen literally right before the random drug test, although it is possible.

Does that make sense? I'm typing from a phone.

I'm not following I'm afraid, though I stress my knowledge of drug use and elimination is only that of a (very) enthusiastic amateur ha ha. My understanding of the drug elimination process is was that in general the process was continuous - not that it suddenly halved after a set period at a steady state - if illustrated on a graph it would describe a smooth curve whose y-value (pg/ml) would roughly half in a set period thus (sample elimination graph NOT a Clen one):



In the case of Clen that halving period would be about 36 hours. So wherever you looked on the x-axis the associated y-value would be half what it was one half-life (36 hours before) except for during a brief period just after ingestion when blood concentration levels would still be rising and the drug might not yet be present in the urine

Assuming Clen follows a standard elimination profile (and all the information I've been able to glean is consistent with it doing so) and assuming Canelo hadn't ingested the Clen literally hours before testing (ie that he wasn't in the ascending/absorption period on the elimination graph) the urine concentration levels from Canelo's second test were very considerably lower than would be expected after a period of 72 hours (2 half lives) from his first. A urine concentration in the range 150 - 200pg /ml would have been expected - with some variability between individuals and perhaps because the sample were not taken at the same time of day. The measured concentrations were only 60 - 80pg /ml which wouldn't be expected til some 112 hours after the first test.

What I guess I'm asking is whether you know if individual metabolic differences could account for this very considerably discrepancy? I'm speculating at this point, but one thing that could account for a very large difference between the measured and expected urine concentrations would be that Canelo's elimination had been accelerated in some fashion in between the two tests - typically this is done by flushing the system with large amount of water. There may well be another explanation, but perhaps I'm not understanding yours (or maybe the whole process of drug elimination) properly.

If Canelo was flushing in between tests however, it would imply that he knew he was likely to test positive. Why would one take steps to eliminate a drug which one didn't know was there?

EDIT: I think we may have misunderstood each other. Your answer seem to pertain only to the first test result of 600- 800pg which would be consistent both with the relatively recent (a day or two) ingestion of contaminated meat, and with a the****utic dose of Clenbuterol last taken approximately 6 - 8 days earlier (or longer in the cases of higher doses). My question pertains specifically to the difference in the measured urine concentrations between the two tests taken on the 17th and 20th Feb.

[kafkod]

I don't know if it's meat contamination or if he was using. I do know he got caught.

Now correct me if I'm, wrong because I could be but weren't you screaming that Headvetkin was innocent because of the "trace amount" found in his system?

If you're talking about Povetkin then no, I didn't say he was innocent and I called bullshit on posters who said Wilder should have fought him anyway. Wilder couldn't have fought him because the fight was postponed as soon as the meldonium was detected.

And I'm not saying that Canelo is guilty now, I'm calling bullshit on the WBC saying that all the evidence points to him being innocent, when the evidence hasn't been fully examined and investigated yet.

[SplitSecond]

Seems kind of moronic not to do the hair test, or actually follow up with anything. "Everything" here just = trace levels.

"Omg, he has tested positive!"
"Yea, but it's low levels, so probably meat contamination"
"Shouldnt we investigate?"
"Nah."

[kafkod]

what about when Dr Daniel Eichner stated that the positive result was consistent with contaminated meat?

what about when Victor Conte stated that the positive result was consistent with contaminated meat?

what about when Memo Heredia stated that the positive result was consistent with contaminated meat?

I am not saying that Canelo was clean..... just pointing out that 4 different PROFESSIONALS have all drawn the same conclusion

hey, you are a pacfan..... right ?

so, tell me, Mr pacfan..... what conclusions did you draw after your detailed, THOROUGH, investigation into the Pac-refusing-to-test, debacle? lol

Canelo's test results are consistant with contaminated meat, but they are also consistant with cheating, and there's no getting away from that.

And please, let's leave Floyd and Manny out of this. That's a different issue and it should have been over with years ago.

[angkag]

Last couple of posts have pretty much nailed it. Clen has a half life of 34-36 hours (normally. Could the flushing be accelerated ? don't know). The amount in his system could either be residual from juicing, else from meat.

Helps to bear in mind that cases of food poisoning which produce symptoms usually occur with a concentration of around 9 ng/ml. However, heavy emphasis there on 'produce symptoms'. The amount of clen in meat will vary of course, and depends how much you eat.

The Contador case is interesting. Contador was tested 8 times during the tour de france, then a test came back with 0.05ng (Canelo was 0.6 to 0.8). Contador blamed a piece of tainted meat he had polished off over the previous two days, but he got banned even though (i) previous frequent testing showed the amounts could not be a residual result of previous juicing and (ii) the amount of 0.05 was too low for any possible advantage to have been gained.

So lets pretend Contador was telling the truth, and compare with Canelo's case. Firstly the meat Canelo ate had to have a much higher clen concentration than Contador's (possible), else he ate a lot more of it (possible). Hence Canelo's test of 0.6ng to 0.8ng compared to Contador's 0.05ng. But the material differences are:

(1) Canelo doesn't have Contador's defence of having a string of previous/recent tests showing he was not on a juicing cycle

(2) Canelo's defence of 'tainted meat' carries greater credibility than Contador's given Clen is much more widely used in Mexico than in the EU.

In a nutshell, clen will flush out of your system at the same rate whatever its initial source, so the amount at time of testing can only ever give indication of its source if it exceeds whatever amount is deemed to be 'not possible from meat contamination'. Saying the amount is consistent with meat contamination means its 'not inconsistent' with meat contamination. The amount is also consistent with a residual effects of a juicing cycle.

At the end of the day you end up in a 'balance of probabilities' situation. In Contador's case the amounts and prior tests would indicate he was probably innocent, yet the improbability of having clen in EU meat is against him. In Canelo's case, well, given the amount of clen in Mexican meat and how high profile he is, he's certainly guilty of something, be it ******ity, juicing, or both. Take your pick.