Was Larry Holmes….”The Greatest”?

[BKM-]

Larry was 35 with 48 pro fights under his belt when he fought Spinks the first time. He was an old man then; but he did underestimate a great Light Heavyweight who had a great game plan. Spinks outsped Larry Holmes. Larry should have trained harder for that fight, IMO. The second loss to Spinks was an out and out robbery like Lewis-Holyfield I. Ask anybody. Larry didn't lose the second Spinks fight; the judges stole it from him.

35 aint old for a guy who went the decision with a prime Holyfield and beat RAY MERCER at 42,and ko'd Bonecrusher Smith and Mike Weaver in his 50s..other notable wins aswell. I do not consider Larry holmes who fought Spinks old at all. And dont forget SPinks was barely 200 punds the first time around. Dont call Michael SPinks a Light Heavyweight(If weight is such an issue you might wanna call Patterson, Marciano Louis etc, light heavyweights) he was a very good HW and could've been greater.

[SquareCircle]

Actually, that knock-out is one of the reasons I rank Mike higher than Evander Holyfield, who I feel is overrated by many. Evander was great; but he wasn't as great of a world champion as Mike. When Evander beat Mike both were past their primes and Evander is the type of fighter who ages slower. Mike would have been past his best at age 30 with or without prison. I wish Mike and Evander had fought in 1991 when Mike was still in his prime and Holy was in his. It might have gone the same way; but...it might not have.

Evander accomplished more as a fighter than Mike Tyson ever dreamed of. Evander Holyfield was old when he fought Mike Tyson, and far before they fought Mike was out of his prime. Mike, officially, was out of his prime less than 3-4 years after he turned professional, which very may well be one of the shortest primes ever. Tyson was stopped 5 times which is more than any other heavyweight champion except Douglas. He never beat a world champion in his prime. K-DOGG normally your posts make sense, but this one was a little far from logical in my book. Did you see Holyfield-Qawi?

[BKM-]

Evander accomplished more as a fighter than Mike Tyson ever dreamed of. Evander Holyfield was old when he fought Mike Tyson, and far before they fought Mike was out of his prime. Mike, officially, was out of his prime less than 3-4 years after he turned professional, which very may well be one of the shortest primes ever. Tyson was stopped 5 times which is more than any other heavyweight champion except Douglas. He never beat a world champion in his prime. K-DOGG normally your posts make sense, but this one was a little far from logical in my book. Did you see Holyfield-Qawi?

MAn you're a ****ing moron. Mike was stopped 4 times, Holyfield wasn't OLD when he faced Mike. The only thing that was diffirent about Holyfield in those fights was his refexles MAYBE. Do you always listen to the ****ing media? Did Holyfield not put on a great performance after he got ''a heart attack'' vs Moorer? ..and you have an avatar with Holyfield. Get your head out of your ass. You're too full of hate, there's no sence in discussing Tyson with you.

[Easy-E]

Did he win that fight? YES. Many heavyweights would have got eaten up by him. Jack Johnson would beat Ali, Louis, Holmes, anyone. Ali even said Johnson was the greatest. He admired Johnson. And for 8 years he shook the world, no one even got close to him. You dont what he went through just to get a title shot. They should made a movie about him instead of James Braddock.

Wrong. Ali said HE was the greatest.

Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Fraizer, Liston, Dempsey and Tyson all would have worked Jack Johnson, and in a bad way.

[K-DOGG]

Evander accomplished more as a fighter than Mike Tyson ever dreamed of. Evander Holyfield was old when he fought Mike Tyson, and far before they fought Mike was out of his prime. Mike, officially, was out of his prime less than 3-4 years after he turned professional, which very may well be one of the shortest primes ever. Tyson was stopped 5 times which is more than any other heavyweight champion except Douglas. He never beat a world champion in his prime. K-DOGG normally your posts make sense, but this one was a little far from logical in my book. Did you see Holyfield-Qawi?

Holyfield-Qawi was at Cruiserweight. I'm not saying Evander wasn't a great fighter....or maybe even a greater "figther" than Tyson. I'm saying Tyson was a greater Heavyweight Champion. Mike singlehanded cleaned out the division, beating all of the title claimants and teh men they beat, with the exception of Tim Witherspoon.

Mike: Trevor Berbick (WBC), James Smith (WBA), Pinklon Thomas (WBC), Tony Tucker (IBF), Tony Tubbs (WBA), Larry Holmes (Lineal), Michael Spinks (lineal)

of those champions and former champions, only Holmes and Berbick were really past their best. Tubbs went on to upset contenders for years after Tyson stopped him in two...should have gotten a decision over Rid**** Bowe. Tony Tucker was on the scene for years and was only 28 when he fought Tyson; but Mike beat him better than Lewis did. Mike began the downward spiral of Pinklon Thomas becoming the first man to knock him out....same with Berbick. No one had ever knocked out Berbick before Mike.

Holyfield: Foreman, Cooper, Holmes, Bowe.

That's Evander's first reign; two men in their 40's and one journeyman. He lost to the first real contender he faced.

Holyfield II: Bowe, Moorer

Second reign...Evander gets a very close MD over a fat Rid**** Bowe and loses in his very first defense against the second real contender he faced in his championship reign.

Holyfield III: Tyson, Tyson, Moorer, Bean, Lewis, Lewis

Third reign was impressive. Mike was no longer the best in the world at this point, though. He was a top 5 fighter at best. Still, Evander was an old man himself at 34 by this point and most considered him shot. The reason people point to this fight is because of the shock value of the upset. In reality, the public overestimated Tyson and underestimated Holyfield. The Moorer win was also impresssive...he should have done that the first time. Vaughn Bean?...typical mandatory and means nothing really. The next two fights, he lost.

Mike beat the best of his era. Holyfield against the best of his era: lost 2 of 3 to Bowe, lost two of two (really) to Lewis, won two of two over Tyson (past his best; but still better than most of the top ten), one 1 of two against Moorer.

I don't really count the "4th" reign...well, actually, I only recognize Evander as a two time champion; but that's another story.

Mike dominated his era pre-91.

Lewis dominated the next era.

Holyfield was somewhere in between.

Evnader's a real warrior; but the facts don't lend towards him being a better world champ than Mike was.

[Mike Tyson77]

"Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Fraizer, Liston, Dempsey and Tyson all would have worked Jack Johnson, and in a bad way."


Um....I dont know about that. Jack Johnson was kinda hard to hit in his prime. Watch his fights against Burns and Jefferys.

[K-DOGG]

35 aint old for a guy who went the decision with a prime Holyfield and beat RAY MERCER at 42,and ko'd Bonecrusher Smith and Mike Weaver in his 50s..other notable wins aswell. I do not consider Larry holmes who fought Spinks old at all. And dont forget SPinks was barely 200 punds the first time around. Dont call Michael SPinks a Light Heavyweight(If weight is such an issue you might wanna call Patterson, Marciano Louis etc, light heavyweights) he was a very good HW and could've been greater.

LOL!!! C'mon man! Weaver and Smith were both geriatrics when Holmes beat them the second time; they were rolled to the ring in wheel chairs. You can't count that "Legends of Boxing" tournament when looking at Larry's carreer. So he was the best Old Guy out there, okay.

Spinks was the former light heavyweight champion who put on some weight to challenge Holmes, so, yes...he was a blown up light heavyweight. Mike beat an old Holmes once, stopped a Gerry Cooney who hadn't fought in two years and had been battling an alcohol addiction...Gerry was clearly not ready for a title shot. And Michael beat some other heavyweight named Tangstead, I think. Who the hell is that? No, Michael Spinks was a great Light-Heavyweight; but only a pretty good heavyweight who came along and challenged the champion at the right time.

[SquareCircle]

Holyfield-Qawi was at Cruiserweight. I'm not saying Evander wasn't a great fighter....or maybe even a greater "figther" than Tyson. I'm saying Tyson was a greater Heavyweight Champion. Mike singlehanded cleaned out the division, beating all of the title claimants and teh men they beat, with the exception of Tim Witherspoon.

Mike: Trevor Berbick (WBC), James Smith (WBA), Pinklon Thomas (WBC), Tony Tucker (IBF), Tony Tubbs (WBA), Larry Holmes (Lineal), Michael Spinks (lineal)

of those champions and former champions, only Holmes and Berbick were really past their best. Tubbs went on to upset contenders for years after Tyson stopped him in two...should have gotten a decision over Rid**** Bowe. Tony Tucker was on the scene for years and was only 28 when he fought Tyson; but Mike beat him better than Lewis did. Mike began the downward spiral of Pinklon Thomas becoming the first man to knock him out....same with Berbick. No one had ever knocked out Berbick before Mike.

Holyfield: Foreman, Cooper, Holmes, Bowe.

That's Evander's first reign; two men in their 40's and one journeyman. He lost to the first real contender he faced.

Holyfield II: Bowe, Moorer

Second reign...Evander gets a very close MD over a fat Rid**** Bowe and loses in his very first defense against the second real contender he faced in his championship reign.

Holyfield III: Tyson, Tyson, Moorer, Bean, Lewis, Lewis

Third reign was impressive. Mike was no longer the best in the world at this point, though. He was a top 5 fighter at best. Still, Evander was an old man himself at 34 by this point and most considered him shot. The reason people point to this fight is because of the shock value of the upset. In reality, the public overestimated Tyson and underestimated Holyfield. The Moorer win was also impresssive...he should have done that the first time. Vaughn Bean?...typical mandatory and means nothing really. The next two fights, he lost.

Mike beat the best of his era. Holyfield against the best of his era: lost 2 of 3 to Bowe, lost two of two (really) to Lewis, won two of two over Tyson (past his best; but still better than most of the top ten), one 1 of two against Moorer.

I don't really count the "4th" reign...well, actually, I only recognize Evander as a two time champion; but that's another story.

Mike dominated his era pre-91.

Lewis dominated the next era.

Holyfield was somewhere in between.

Evnader's a real warrior; but the facts don't lend towards him being a better world champ than Mike was.

take a look at Trevor Berbick (WBC), James Smith (WBA), Pinklon Thomas (WBC), Tony Tucker (IBF), Tony Tubbs (WBA), Larry Holmes (Lineal), Michael Spinks (lineal)

Do you really think Berbick, Smith, Thomas and a washed up Holmes deserve to be mentioned as if they are the same caliber as Foreman, Bowe, Lewis, Tyson or Moorer? And Foreman was more dangerous in his old age against certain opponents, particularly swarmers, which is why Mike Tyson ducked George Foreman at age 22 or 23 when King offered him the fight, claiming it would put him back on the map and earn him millions. Tyson declined

[Mike Tyson77]

take a look at Trevor Berbick (WBC), James Smith (WBA), Pinklon Thomas (WBC), Tony Tucker (IBF), Tony Tubbs (WBA), Larry Holmes (Lineal), Michael Spinks (lineal)

Do you really think Berbick, Smith, Thomas and a washed up Holmes deserve to be mentioned as if they are the same caliber as Foreman, Bowe, Lewis, Tyson or Moorer? And Foreman was more dangerous in his old age against certain opponents, particularly swarmers, which is why Mike Tyson ducked George Foreman at age 22 or 23 when King offered him the fight, claiming it would put him back on the map and earn him millions. Tyson declined

That "washed up" Holmes gave Holyfield one hell of a fight.

[SquareCircle]

holyfield was at a big style disadvantage and overcame it though. Good discussion.