Was Larry Holmes….”The Greatest”?

[hollister]

Ok then, why is he given so much credit for beating Jim Jeffries who had been reitred for some time and lost like 90lbs. to participate in a fight he had to be persuaded to take, and Willard is given no credit for beating a still active champion in Johnson? Willard was the first fighter with size and decent skills that Johnson faced, the first fighter that actually had a boxing style and was tall enough that Johnson couldn't hold him back with his left hand and hit him with the other, and Johnson lost. He did alot for his race but overall I don't think he's that great a fighter. People knock Marciano for not fighting huge guys, but don't knock Johnson for defending his title against a bunch of middleweights and a couple of big guys that make Carnera look like Wlad lol
All I'm saying is try to keep it in perspective.

Sorry, I'm ******ed lol
I will say this about Holmes though, at least he always trained for his fights, where Ali only trained if he felt like it.
Ali will always have that mystery though, what if they hadn't banned him from the sport, etc.

[K-DOGG]

Ok then, why is he given so much credit for beating Jim Jeffries who had been reitred for some time and lost like 90lbs. to participate in a fight he had to be persuaded to take, and Willard is given no credit for beating a still active champion in Johnson? Willard was the first fighter with size and decent skills that Johnson faced, the first fighter that actually had a boxing style and was tall enough that Johnson couldn't hold him back with his left hand and hit him with the other, and Johnson lost. He did alot for his race but overall I don't think he's that great a fighter. People knock Marciano for not fighting huge guys, but don't knock Johnson for defending his title against a bunch of middleweights and a couple of big guys that make Carnera look like Wlad lol
All I'm saying is try to keep it in perspective.

Oh, I think people give WAAAYY too much credit for the Jeffries fight. For the record, I never looked at that as a big win 'cause I know what it was....it was Ali-Holmes in essence or Charles-Louis. It meant nothing in the historical sense because Jeff was no longer at his best. They should have fought in 1905; the public was clamoring for it...but Jeff hung 'em up instead.

Willard took 26 rounds to knock-out an old fat man in 100= degree heat....who was winning the fight from a point perspective should the fight have had a 20 round limit.

Johnson is great because of the wins he compiled on the way to the Burns match. He was recongized as the best heavyweight in the world next to Jeffries in 1904, which is why people wanted to see the fight. After he beat Burns, it was White Hope City. He should have rematched Langford, Jeneatte, and McVey...who he had already beaten; but that was the last thing White America wanted, so he fought Fireman Jim Flynn, Frank Moran, and an Old Jim Jeffries. What cha gonna do?

[K-DOGG]

I just dont see how his credentials can hang with Ali's....and lets remember that Holmes era wasnt necesarilly the best.Alis era was tremendous and he beat everyone up until the end....no way is Holmes better then ali.

Okay. Who were Ali's toughest opponents? Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Lyle, Young, and Shavers...right?

Holmes: Norton, Berbick (future champ), Weaver (future champ), Shavers, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon (future 2 time champ), Smith (future champ), & Williams.


That's a pretty comparable list if you ask me.

[K-DOGG]

Sorry, I'm ******ed lol
I will say this about Holmes though, at least he always trained for his fights, where Ali only trained if he felt like it.
Ali will always have that mystery though, what if they hadn't banned him from the sport, etc.

Yeah...but if he had fought during those threee years, we never would have seen how special outside the ring he was...and he wouldn't have morphed as he did in the ring. When he returned after the exile, he was a man who appreciated the spotlight and the chance to be a world champion, wheras before, he was a kid with a chip on his shoulder in a lot of ways.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Holmes: Norton, Berbick (future champ), Weaver (future champ), Shavers, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon (future 2 time champ), Smith (future champ), & Williams.

It's a pitty that the term future champ doesn't imply a great fighter. Weak eras in boxing produced weak champions as was the case with those fighters.

Ali's top opponents also feature on the top 10 all time great list - Foreman, Liston, Frazier etc. Where as none of Holmes opponents feature on the list (perhaps Tyson but Holmes lost)

Ali fought better quality opposition than Holmes and thats a fact.

[K-DOGG]

It's a pitty that the term future champ doesn't imply a great fighter. Weak eras in boxing produced weak champions as was the case with those fighters.

Ali's top opponents also feature on the top 10 all time great list - Foreman, Liston, Frazier etc. Where as none of Holmes opponents feature on the list (perhaps Tyson but Holmes lost)

Ali fought better quality opposition than Holmes and thats a fact.

It's debateable, really.

How would Frazier have done against Cooney or Shavers or Norton? Or how would Liston and Foreman have done against Holmes? We don't know.

It's all relative, really.

[hollister]

Oh, I think people give WAAAYY too much credit for the Jeffries fight. For the record, I never looked at that as a big win 'cause I know what it was....it was Ali-Holmes in essence or Charles-Louis. It meant nothing in the historical sense because Jeff was no longer at his best. They should have fought in 1905; the public was clamoring for it...but Jeff hung 'em up instead.

Willard took 26 rounds to knock-out an old fat man in 100= degree heat....who was winning the fight from a point perspective should the fight have had a 20 round limit.

Johnson is great because of the wins he compiled on the way to the Burns match. He was recongized as the best heavyweight in the world next to Jeffries in 1904, which is why people wanted to see the fight. After he beat Burns, it was White Hope City. He should have rematched Langford, Jeneatte, and McVey...who he had already beaten; but that was the last thing White America wanted, so he fought Fireman Jim Flynn, Frank Moran, and an Old Jim Jeffries. What cha gonna do?

I agree with you about the Jeffries fight from a historical standpoint, and the sad part is apart from Willard, Jeffries is physically the most imposing man Johnson fought lol
Despite outweighing Johson by 10 or 15 lbs. and looking pretty damn solid if memory serves, he had nothing because of all the weight he lost, and Johnson being strong himself didn't help.
Tommy Burns is a prime example of the opponents that Jack normally fought, 5'7 or 5'9 and around 160-170lbs. What would you say to people if Ruiz fought Gatti and took his belt by holding and hitting him, battering him until the fight was stopped, and then was still being praised for it 100 years later? lol
I mean I agree, you gotta fight whoever's there, and Johnson was a great fighter in his era, I just don't agree that he'd beat much of anyone now, and I think his record sometimes get more credit than it should.

Edit: Boxrec says Johson weighed 205 to Willard's 230, but I don't know how accurate that is, he looked pudgy when I saw the film.

[hollister]

Yeah...but if he had fought during those threee years, we never would have seen how special outside the ring he was...and he wouldn't have morphed as he did in the ring. When he returned after the exile, he was a man who appreciated the spotlight and the chance to be a world champion, wheras before, he was a kid with a chip on his shoulder in a lot of ways.

Can't really argue with that lol

[Easy-E]

Destroyed, I really feel is too strong of a word. I've got a lot of respect for any man who wins the world championship, no matter what era in which he fought. Johnson was a very intelligent fighter; and I really believe he'd give any fighter who ever lived trouble. True, his style was very much developed for the type of offense of the day; but a year or so before he died he would regularly go into gyms with young fighters and challenge them to hit him....no one could. And he firmly believed he could have beaten Joe Louis. Much is lost over time...respect is one thing that is either lost or embellished; but I do believe Johnson was capable in any era.

Well Louis did kind of have that stand in front of you type style, while Ali would box circles around Jack, Foreman, Tyson and Liston would have knocked Johnson out, while Dempsey and Fraizer would have big advantages over Jack.

[hollister]

It's a pitty that the term future champ doesn't imply a great fighter. Weak eras in boxing produced weak champions as was the case with those fighters.

Ali's top opponents also feature on the top 10 all time great list - Foreman, Liston, Frazier etc. Where as none of Holmes opponents feature on the list (perhaps Tyson but Holmes lost)

Ali fought better quality opposition than Holmes and thats a fact.

You're right, but just to be fair, Liston was about 40 the first time they fought, Wasn't he? And Frazier was only really at the top of his game in the first fight, the one where Ali wasn't in the best shape, and paid for it, coincidentally the same fight you never se aired on programs talking about Ali. The only fight they show is the last one, but by that point Frazier's skills had eroded badly and he fought that fight nearly on heart alone. The only name he fought in his prime was big George, who believed his own hype and promptly ran himself out of gas. I really don't think that Holmes is any worse a fighter than Ali. He was the same size as Ali, he had just about as much speed (hand and foot) as Ali, and implemented Ali's style which worked very well for him. Hell, he even struggled with the same fighter that Ali could never beat convincingly, lol Norton.