The Mayweather handpicking myth is a lie

[maracho]

No you can't. If all the future had of Roy jones was articles all they would know is that he was superhuman fast, bouncy and fought like a chicken.

How many different images does that bring to mind ?Reading other people's opinions is not the same seeing it for yourself.

Yet and still there was a war going on in Jones divisions(10 ducks) and he acted like he didn't even hear the gun fire. These guys were having careers going tooth and nail and felt no need to call these guys out. Imo he would beat most of them but that's imo not facts.

Just like I named Floyds actual competition in his actual weightclasses and nobody looks at that list and sees a real Floyd beater either.

Maidanna

And I hope we're talking about Maidanna vs Mayweather II. Because Floyd fought a better fight in Maidana I. He gave us an entertaining fight by standing in the pocket something he hadn't done since Corley. But the haters wanted to give Maidanna a descion for punching elbows and whole lot of uneffectice aggression. In the rematch we got a terrible fight which anybody with a brain knew that's how it would end if he fought like that's. Thanks.

Floyd stood in front of Cotto and Guerrero too but not in the pocket like that fight. He didn't move with Robert until the last two rounds when the fight was in the bag. If people hadn't been so intent on stealing victories for his opponents- we would of seen more entertaining fights. All of your over critiscms forced him to be more cautious.

I'm waiting for somebody to bring up Leonard. Leonard was a marathon runner in the ring. Floyd looks truly flat footed compared to Leonard and that's facts. I'm convinced that only a small minority's here have even watched some of the old footage of the past fighters they swear loyalty too.

The old boxrec forums had a lot of this but at least most of them covered their bias with data and analyzation. Not the casual fan mania that goes on around here. Boxingscene is basically a pugilistic TMZ.


Please identify for me the windmill style your talking about.

Marciano vs Louis




Personally, I'm more impressed with Dempseys weaving slugger style. Highly skilled compared to the majority of the **** I seen from other fighters of this era. Yet, he still was out pointed by Tunney who was a basic boxer at best.

Dempsey vs Tunney 1

Tunney 2 was moved out of Chicago because Capone wanted to fix the fight. Tunney 2 is the long count if I'm not mistaken.

Great boxers like Gene Tunney and Floyd Patterson actually wrote about boxing styles. Boxing trainers read training books to learn boxing styles. Likewise, great war generals read about warriors of the past because technology doesnt evolve but rather purposefully and intelligently builds upon itself. Technology can be lost too and this is where books can help you understand that Tunney was not just a basic boxer and Greb was not sparring in the video that you provided. Even though there is a much larger gene pool, today's boxers are almost all from the inner big city and train much more for orthodox styles. Boxers back in the day fought more often and against a wider demography,immigration, variety of instincts, and training so had to adapt quickly (often by reading snail mail and newspapers) to a wider range of styles, which appears wrong in your eyes. Now lets show you in writing what fight writers mean by windmill style (swarming with punches from all angles including hooks from above) is actually a smart move against fighters adopted to just modern orthodox.

Since Floyd's enablers will never take my word for it, Im sending you some links in hopes you may take theirs.

https://books.google.com/books?id=dI...age&q=windmill &f=false

https://commandoboxing.com/content/boxing-styles-swarmer-slugger-boxer-puncher

https://www.*************.com/thread...-fight.438889/

https://books.google.com/books?id=Wi...age&q=windmill boxing swarming&f=false

http://www.thesweetscience.com/artic...one-harry-greb

https://www.si.com/vault/1995/02/13/133270/pryor-restraint-as-aaron-pryor-ex-boxing-champion-and-ex-addict-fights-to-stay-clean-his-life-is-again-full-of-promise

https://www.boxingnewsme.com/single-post/2016/10/11/Boxing-world-mourns-Aaron-Pryor

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/armstrong.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=_DvdYPPQSXUC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Joe+Frazier+windmill&source=bl&ots=XF3C3X2CSZ&sig=xaj10M4o8WI1hnmsPvxyX_PjWh8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimqMGGtYnWAhVFQiYKHeQDAoc4ChDoAQgtMAE#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Frazier%20windmill&f=false

Mayweather seems ready to unravel after the 4th round (see @ 16:37) and crying "I cant see I cant see". Mayweather also responded that Maidana fought “reckless … with a windmill style” in the first bout, and subjected the champion to “something crazy,” "I give myself a C, C-minus."

[whoelsebutjames]

Great boxers like Gene Tunney and Floyd Patterson actually wrote about boxing styles. Boxing trainers read training books to learn boxing styles. Likewise, great war generals read about warriors of the past because technology doesnt evolve but rather purposefully and intelligently builds upon itself. Technology can be lost too and this is where books can help you understand that Tunney was not just a basic boxer and Greb was not sparring in the video that you provided. Even though there is a much larger gene pool, today's boxers are almost all from the inner big city and train much more for orthodox styles. Boxers back in the day fought more often and against a wider demography,immigration, variety of instincts, and training so had to adapt quickly (often by reading snail mail and newspapers) to a wider range of styles, which appears wrong in your eyes. Now lets show you in writing what fight writers mean by windmill style (swarming with punches from all angles including hooks from above) is actually a smart move against fighters adopted to just modern orthodox.

Since Floyd's enablers will never take my word for it, Im sending you some links in hopes you may take theirs.

https://books.google.com/books?id=dI...age&q=windmill &f=false

https://commandoboxing.com/content/boxing-styles-swarmer-slugger-boxer-puncher

https://www.*************.com/thread...-fight.438889/

https://books.google.com/books?id=Wi...age&q=windmill boxing swarming&f=false

http://www.thesweetscience.com/artic...one-harry-greb

https://www.si.com/vault/1995/02/13/133270/pryor-restraint-as-aaron-pryor-ex-boxing-champion-and-ex-addict-fights-to-stay-clean-his-life-is-again-full-of-promise

https://www.boxingnewsme.com/single-post/2016/10/11/Boxing-world-mourns-Aaron-Pryor

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/armstrong.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=_DvdYPPQSXUC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Joe+Frazier+windmill&source=bl&ots=XF3C3X2CSZ&sig=xaj10M4o8WI1hnmsPvxyX_PjWh8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimqMGGtYnWAhVFQiYKHeQDAoc4ChDoAQgtMAE#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Frazier%20windmill&f=false

Mayweather seems ready to unravel after the 4th round (see @ 16:37) and crying "I cant see I cant see". Mayweather also responded that Maidana fought “reckless … with a windmill style” in the first bout, and subjected the champion to “something crazy,” "I give myself a C, C-minus."

You didn't answer my question. Would you be able picture Roys fighting style if you never saw it and only read "he has superhuman speed and fights like a chicken

Of course the old school fighter should laid the techniques as a foundation. That's every sport. But like every sport aspects of the game evolve.

War generals follow he basic laws of precious generals and sun Tzu but their ability to execute maneuvers due to new technology has grown exponentially. Also, a lot of these rules are also nullified by guerrilla warfare.

Not to get too off subject but just like early MMA was shaped by Gracie. Ken shamrock adapted and pushed the sport forward. Most MMA are wrestlers that leaned BJJ because there are no finishes/chokes in wrestling. If you look at the Gracie footage and believe that he would beat all the modern MMA guys-- you're biased. Enough about that **** sport.

You have already drank the proverbial Koolaid so to speak and are invested with your point of view. That's awesome, my intent was not to change your mind. My intent was for the lurkers and people who don't post to see that their is an intellligent opposite point to the hyperbole. I've defended my position intelligently and with out resorting to common fan tactics.

This thread touches on a bit of everything. Roy jones. How little was sugar ray Leonard and Robinson regardless of popular perception. The fighting style of the last vs the present. Why were a Decent amount of fighters able to challenge from welter to heavy weight and be competive. Hell ray Robinson said that lt heavy was too much. There's an opposite point of view to everything bug you can't rationally say that you oppose every single argument without reservations. The point is not whether or not Floyd was the greatest, that's subjective. The point was dispelling the myth that Mayweather was this overblow cherry picked people casually assume he is.

As for Floyd, I'm not going to sit here and justify and rationalize every aspect of every fight. It's insane. Whatever trouble he did or didn't have is for you to dissect mentally. Those clips are what they are but they aren't the total picture of the fight. The first fight was easily 100x more entertaining then the second fight. That's why we got the second one and no one clamored for a third.


And your comments about what Floyd said about Maidanna are misleading.


If Floyd = Cherry Picked than Roy= 10ducks

If you want to include people not in his weight class to define his career that's fine because that's up to you. I listed 10 people Roys weightclasss at the time he was fighting in them that could of fought that we all assume he would of beat. I also, assume Mayweather would of beat the people actice in his class.

Now so far the scorecard is like this.

Mayweather duck score card
-------------------------------
Winky (probable not his weightclass)
Martinez (probable*)
Margarito (Arum said Mayweather was willing, dispute over contract extension)
Cotto (Debatable- Arum connected)
Tszyu (2004-2005 debatable)
PAC (2009 afraid of needles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the Mayweather challenge and it is for any wondering Tom, ****, or harry to answer.

Pick the names that would make Mayweather and ATG if he were to fight and beat. You can also add names as long as they belong to his division at the time he was fighting there.

Super Featherweight 1998-2001

Acelino Freitas, Joel Casamayor, Robert Garcia, Steve Forbes, Jong Kwon Baek, Takanori Hatakeyama, Lavka Sim and Jorge Barrios.

Lightweight 2002-2003

Paul Spadafora, Leonard Dorin, Stevie Johnston, Artur Grigorian, Raul Balbi, Juan Lazcano and Javier Jauregui

Light Welterweight 2004-2005

Kostya Tszyu, Ricky Hatton, Vivian Harris, Carlos Maussa, and Junior Witter

Welterweight 2006

Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron and Luis Collazo

Light Middleweight 2007

Cory Spinks, Vernon Forrest, Joachim Alcine, Serhiy Dzinziruk and Roman Karmazin

Welterweight 2007

Paul Williams



and here is the Mayweather challenge.

[Elroy The Great]

Lmao .... I knew people would start talking this ATG crap, I was waiting to break out the footage.

I blame be boxing historians for not giving a realistic picture. These old guys were super tough. But 46 quality opponents in one year is nonsense. There were prob less than 46 full time boxers in the whole world then. I maybe exaggerating but still. Plus al these 15 round fights of guys throwing constant haymakers and nobody gets knocked out in half of them??

Next they're going to go back to counting bare knuckle boxers. Floyd ain't great cuz he used gloves lmao

i blame so called boxing fans who claim to know everything. the sports elitists !!!! these new fangled boxers are ''spoiled rotten'' !!!!!!

for every 1 quality guy back then, there were 1000's of straight up BUMS !!!!

greb, please

[maracho]

You didn't answer my question. Would you be able picture Roys fighting style if you never saw it and only read "he has superhuman speed and fights like a chicken

Of course the old school fighter should laid the techniques as a foundation. That's every sport. But like every sport aspects of the game evolve.

War generals follow he basic laws of precious generals and sun Tzu but their ability to execute maneuvers due to new technology has grown exponentially. Also, a lot of these rules are also nullified by guerrilla warfare.

Not to get too off subject but just like early MMA was shaped by Gracie. Ken shamrock adapted and pushed the sport forward. Most MMA are wrestlers that leaned BJJ because there are no finishes/chokes in wrestling. If you look at the Gracie footage and believe that he would beat all the modern MMA guys-- you're biased. Enough about that **** sport.

You have already drank the proverbial Koolaid so to speak and are invested with your point of view. That's awesome, my intent was not to change your mind. My intent was for the lurkers and people who don't post to see that their is an intellligent opposite point to the hyperbole. I've defended my position intelligently and with out resorting to common fan tactics.

This thread touches on a bit of everything. Roy jones. How little was sugar ray Leonard and Robinson regardless of popular perception. The fighting style of the last vs the present. Why were a Decent amount of fighters able to challenge from welter to heavy weight and be competive. Hell ray Robinson said that lt heavy was too much. There's an opposite point of view to everything bug you can't rationally say that you oppose every single argument without reservations. The point is not whether or not Floyd was the greatest, that's subjective. The point was dispelling the myth that Mayweather was this overblow cherry picked people casually assume he is.

As for Floyd, I'm not going to sit here and justify and rationalize every aspect of every fight. It's insane. Whatever trouble he did or didn't have is for you to dissect mentally. Those clips are what they are but they aren't the total picture of the fight. The first fight was easily 100x more entertaining then the second fight. That's why we got the second one and no one clamored for a third.


And your comments about what Floyd said about Maidanna are misleading.


If Floyd = Cherry Picked than Roy= 10ducks

If you want to include people not in his weight class to define his career that's fine because that's up to you. I listed 10 people Roys weightclasss at the time he was fighting in them that could of fought that we all assume he would of beat. I also, assume Mayweather would of beat the people actice in his class.

Now so far the scorecard is like this.

Mayweather duck score card
-------------------------------
Winky (probable not his weightclass)
Martinez (probable*)
Margarito (Arum said Mayweather was willing, dispute over contract extension)
Cotto (Debatable- Arum connected)
Tszyu (2004-2005 debatable)
PAC (2009 afraid of needles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the Mayweather challenge and it is for any wondering Tom, ****, or harry to answer.

Pick the names that would make Mayweather and ATG if he were to fight and beat. You can also add names as long as they belong to his division at the time he was fighting there.

Super Featherweight 1998-2001

Acelino Freitas, Joel Casamayor, Robert Garcia, Steve Forbes, Jong Kwon Baek, Takanori Hatakeyama, Lavka Sim and Jorge Barrios.

Lightweight 2002-2003

Paul Spadafora, Leonard Dorin, Stevie Johnston, Artur Grigorian, Raul Balbi, Juan Lazcano and Javier Jauregui

Light Welterweight 2004-2005

Kostya Tszyu, Ricky Hatton, Vivian Harris, Carlos Maussa, and Junior Witter

Welterweight 2006

Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron and Luis Collazo

Light Middleweight 2007

Cory Spinks, Vernon Forrest, Joachim Alcine, Serhiy Dzinziruk and Roman Karmazin

Welterweight 2007

Paul Williams



and here is the Mayweather challenge.

I thought you would change the subject again but thats part of the whole problem with enablers of bullies who only listen to their groupies and yes men. Karma comes and bites them on the @ss -- they become their own worse enemy and set themselves up for failure.

Case in point, I have already said in this thread that Floyd would probably have beaten the guys he avoided and/or ducked--those fighters who the real fans wanted him to fight in their prime; but I went and emboldened who I feel were legit challengers of your list anyway. However there is one obvious Floyd caller outer that you enablers really hate to remember and for good reason; that being GGG, who can swarm, slug, and methodically walk great boxers down.

Anyway, back to your question. I'm actually a visual person and learn a lot from youtubes but yes I could also learn a lot about Jones style by reading, especially since his moves were so fast. Id also say that Jones often fights like a rooster because he spent so much time with rooster fighting and Ill bet that a well spoken gent like himself probably has rooster fighting books. Jones avoided some of the best partly due to his getting robbed overseas but I wouldn't call him a cherry picker, at least nothing like Floyd who admits to it. Jone's use of roids are kind of equal to a duck via fear though

[billeau2]

Yes, we respectfully have our differences on the subject. Likewise, like it or not, Floyd has PAC, JMM, Dela Hoya, and Cotto. Canelo is a possible-- let's see on that.

Here's a list of top opponents in Mayweathers weightclasses during his reign. Find me an ATG on this list.

Super featherweight -2001

Acelino Freitas, Joel Casamayor, Robert Garcia, Steve Forbes, Jong Kwon Baek, Takanori Hatakeyama, Lavka Sim and Jorge Barrios.

Lightweight 2002-2003

Paul Spadafora, Leonard Dorin, Stevie Johnston, Artur Grigorian, Raul Balbi, Juan Lazcano and Javier Jauregui

Light Welterweight 2004-2005

Kostya Tszyu, Vivian Harris, Carlos Maussa, and Junior Witter

Welterweight 2006

Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron and Luis Collazo

Light Middleweight 2007

Cory Spinks, Vernon Forrest, Joachim Alcine, Serhiy Dzinziruk

Welterweight 2007
Paul Williams
---------------------

I am not placing blame on Floyd. I mean I might lol but why muddy the waters? AS I told slip and roll: Roast pork is roast pork, whether the barBq is firing, or the barn burns down... Fact is Floyd could have been the most sincere, angst experiencing, ubermensch who went up to the mountain top and challenged the devil himself to a match....er at a catch weight of course... but in the end? it doesn't really matter does it?

[maracho]

Of course the old school fighter should laid the techniques as a foundation. That's every sport. But like every sport aspects of the game evolve.

War generals follow he basic laws of precious generals and sun Tzu but their ability to execute maneuvers due to new technology has grown exponentially. Also, a lot of these rules are also nullified by guerrilla warfare.

Evolution is random accidents. Technology is purpose driven and has helped increase all kinds of records for those willing to read. Likewise, guerillas read the benefits of unorthodox fighting

Not to get too off subject but just like early MMA was shaped by Gracie. Ken shamrock adapted and pushed the sport forward. Most MMA are wrestlers that leaned BJJ because there are no finishes/chokes in wrestling. If you look at the Gracie footage and believe that he would beat all the modern MMA guys-- you're biased. Enough about that **** sport.

Crap sport or do you hate MMA because Floyd and Bernard said it was invented for white guys who cant fight? By the way, MMA was going on thousands of years ago in Egypt, etc.. Or may your bias is evolutionism thinking everything old needs to be replaced by something newer? Well, Gracie had more consecutive submissions than anyone.

You have already drank the proverbial Koolaid so to speak and are invested with your point of view. That's awesome, my intent was not to change your mind. My intent was for the lurkers and people who don't post to see that their is an intellligent opposite point to the hyperbole. I've defended my position intelligently and with out resorting to common fan tactics.

This thread touches on a bit of everything. Roy jones. How little was sugar ray Leonard and Robinson regardless of popular perception. The fighting style of the last vs the present. Why were a Decent amount of fighters able to challenge from welter to heavy weight and be competive. Hell ray Robinson said that lt heavy was too much. There's an opposite point of view to everything bug you can't rationally say that you oppose every single argument without reservations. The point is not whether or not Floyd was the greatest, that's subjective. The point was dispelling the myth that Mayweather was this overblow cherry picked people casually assume he is.

Uh could you please refresh me on the emboldened parts?

Again, Floyd admits to cherry picking when he says he always looks for a "blueprint to lose" and that "its all about the money"", Ill keep retiring from boxing before boxing retires me", etc. etc.

Robinson believed he was big enough for LH until he got beat

As for Floyd, I'm not going to sit here and justify and rationalize every aspect of every fight. It's insane. Whatever trouble he did or didn't have is for you to dissect mentally. Those clips are what they are but they aren't the total picture of the fight. The first fight was easily 100x more entertaining then the second fight. That's why we got the second one and no one clamored for a third.

And your comments about what Floyd said about Maidanna are misleading.

Misleading how? Floyd himself called Maidona's style in the first fight a windmill technique and Floyd gave himself a C-Minus, which he claims was still better than his second performance; and I would agree that Floyd's first performance was better because it had to be

[billeau2]

Sick you say :smileysex this list is simply a list of the top guys at Floyd weightclasses at the time that he was in it that he didn't face. This list is facts.

You guys take things out of context with all these Floyd could of fought lists as proof of ducks . Regardless, of what weightclass he was in at the time. Why don't you guys throw in Lennox Lewis too.


#mythbusters


Meanwhile, people say this is an ATG.

Wow you have to shiat on things that you do not understand... when you could make your case without exposing your ignorance.

Do you know what this is a tape of? do you know conventions at the time? This is probably the only known footage of Greb. At this time shooting movies was in its infancy and the convention was to overact for the camera...In doing so guys did not go tooth and nail, made sure the performance was canned and were otherwise very contained. They were more in "instruction" mode and horsing around mode.

Its always amusing to me that you get a certain poster here who wants to say that individuals who have studied combat (my category) and those who study the old time fighters, are looking for trouble...yet its always one of these posters that makes assumptions and starts trouble. Most guys who study the ATG fighters don't even post in this section.

Anyway heres a clue: If you do not know what you are looking at you will not understand what you are seeing. What looks ****** to someone who has not studied the methods and where they derive can make perfect sense to someone who knows what the fighter is trying to accomplish. Its not a question of better, or worse...Boxing distance and timing has changed and there are good and bad points to both methods.

[SugarRayRob]

How hard is it to be genuinely objective around here and call a spade a spade? Is it really that hard? Defending your favourite fighters is fine, but at least try to do it with some objectivity.

Mayweather is a ATG. He will go down as the greatest defensive boxer of ALL TIME. And we won't see anyone else like him in our lifetimes.

But anyone who tries to argue that Mayweather didn't duck prime Margarito, Cotto, Pacquiao and Mosley are pure nut huggers simply trying to re-write history.

He also didn't want anything to do with Tszyu either (smart of him), which is more understandable considering his age as well as some other factors.

The fact is he was brought up in a boxing family, and from before the time he could even walk his career had basically already been planned out. He was raised, educated and managed to make as much money, in the easiest, least risky way possible, whilst taking as little damage as possible along the way.

That plan included cherry picking, ducking, dodging and using every advantage possible, whether inside the ring or outside of the ring.
Whether it be glove sizes, ring sizes, draining fighters, forcing fighters to fight at catch weights 10 pounds heavier than they'd ever fought before and then still coming in 2 pounds heavier than the agreed catch weight, meaning a possible 20+ pound weight advantage on fight night (Marquez).

And the end result of it all is a 50-0 record, and arguably the richest athlete of our era. With barely a scratch on his face.

[whoelsebutjames]

1. Evolution is random accidents. Technology is purpose driven and has helped increase all kinds of records for those willing to read. Likewise, guerillas read the benefits of unorthodox fighting



2.Crap sport or do you hate MMA because Floyd and Bernard said it was invented for white guys who cant fight? By the way, MMA was going on thousands of years ago in Egypt, etc.. Or may your bias is evolutionism thinking everything old needs to be replaced by something newer? Well, Gracie had more consecutive submissions than anyone.



3.Uh could you please refresh me on the emboldened parts?

4.Again, Floyd admits to cherry picking when he says he always looks for a "blueprint to lose" and that "its all about the money"", Ill keep retiring from boxing before boxing retires me", etc. etc.

Robinson believed he was big enough for LH until he got beat



4a.Misleading how? Floyd himself called Maidona's style in the first fight a windmill technique and Floyd gave himself a C-Minus, which he claims was still better than his second performance; and I would agree that Floyd's first performance was better because it had to be

1. I think you know what I meant about evolution yet you are taking it some where else. If you've paid attention to this thread you'd realize I've been very open to alternate interpretation of events. I even included a Floyd duck list. I think that I've been more alternative view points than you. But to your credit I believed you tried.

Every sport evolves. When a new hot qb comes on the scene and does well, the next year the defensive coaches are ready for them with new answers because the old paradigm won't work. When 3 man big driver super teams came the warriors evolved into 5 shooters. Everything is a reaction to the past and some of these reactions are intelligent. Boxing is no different. It's not like we went through a dark age. If the past was completely relevant today -- fights would look the same.

As I said in the past they didn't block as often. Now they do. In the future people might stop blocking in order to get off more punches because everybody else is blocking. Loma is a potential evolution of the sport. He does things others didn't do with his footwork and intelligent volume punching. Floyd was an evolution too. In fact, the reason I use so many non boxing analogies is because boxing popular opinion is stubborn to change. That's why it took MMA for boxing to start considering going back to TV.

While I do beleive in evolution and selection. I do not prescribe to a wholly fatalist point of view. I agree that much in life is a stream of accidents but I would caution against saying that all of it is. That is to say that I believe more in the "selection" part of Darwin's Natural Selection. As some Greeks have poetically put it there are more than one stream. But that is a complicated subject.

2. I watch some MMA but overall I'm not a fan. It wasn't a fully serious comment but not a full unserious comment. I prefer boxing, Thai boxing, and BJJ all more than I prefer MMA because I beleive the rules in these sports allow the athletes to practice their craft more superiorly. Limitation creates strength. I prefer an expert in one field over a jack of all trades approach that is MMA.

3.
Ted Kid Lewis* 5'7 flyweight to heavy weight
Georges Carpentier *flyweight to heavy
Ezzard Charles 6 Middle to heavy
Harry Greb 5'8 welter to heavy
Mickey Walker 5'7 welter to heavy
Archie Moore middleweight to heavy
Bob Fitzsimmons middle to heavy
Sam Langford 5'7 lightweight to heavy
Len Harvey* flyweight through heavy


I pretty sure the fly weights as a lot of fighters that day started as kids. For comparison PAC 5'5 started at age 16, would be of similiar size. I don't thinks he'd be competive with any heavyweights today. Not even fat old shot retired Tyson. Hell if Toney could barely manage in the division I doubt PAC would fare any better.

4. I don't understand what this proves. But ok.

4a. Maybe we are unclear on what each other's saying. I said Floyds first performance was better and he changed his style in the second because people thought it was closer than it was. You brought up Golovkin- why does this always seem diametrically opposed. I like Golovkin, he's not my favorite but hey. You also think Floyd Maidanna I was closer than Jacobsvs Golovkin, I also assume.

Wow you have to shiat on things that you do not understand... when you could make your case without exposing your ignorance.

Do you know what this is a tape of? do you know conventions at the time? This is probably the only known footage of Greb. At this time shooting movies was in its infancy and the convention was to overact for the camera...In doing so guys did not go tooth and nail, made sure the performance was canned and were otherwise very contained. They were more in "instruction" mode and horsing around mode.

Its always amusing to me that you get a certain poster here who wants to say that individuals who have studied combat (my category) and those who study the old time fighters, are looking for trouble...yet its always one of these posters that makes assumptions and starts trouble. Most guys who study the ATG fighters don't even post in this section.

Anyway heres a clue: If you do not know what you are looking at you will not understand what you are seeing. What looks ****** to someone who has not studied the methods and where they derive can make perfect sense to someone who knows what the fighter is trying to accomplish. Its not a question of better, or worse...Boxing distance and timing has changed and there are good and bad points to both methods.

You just used 4 good paragraphs to say nothing. Go figure, people hide behind words when they don't know what to say but still have a motive to say something. I am well aware of the historical tradition of snobbery and elitism that goes on when discussing ATG. Why is that when you don't agree with popular opinion everyone assumes they need to educate you on everything.

Popular opinion is popular opinion. Elitist opinion is elitist opinion. My and your opinion is my and your opinion. All opinion is flawed.

I don't need a bunch of sheep to explain anything to me. I recognize garbage technique when I see it. I've seen Marciano training videos and fights I think he has good technique. I've seen Dempsey fight, I think he has good technique. Do I think that these old school techniques can't be improved? NO! They can.

[Johnny2x2x]

How hard is it to be genuinely objective around here and call a spade a spade? Is it really that hard? Defending your favourite fighters is fine, but at least try to do it with some objectivity.

Mayweather is a ATG. He will go down as the greatest defensive boxer of ALL TIME. And we won't see anyone else like him in our lifetimes.

But anyone who tries to argue that Mayweather didn't duck prime Margarito, Cotto, Pacquiao and Mosley are pure nut huggers simply trying to re-write history.

He also didn't want anything to do with Tszyu either (smart of him), which is more understandable considering his age as well as some other factors.

The fact is he was brought up in a boxing family, and from before the time he could even walk his career had basically already been planned out. He was raised, educated and managed to make as much money, in the easiest, least risky way possible, whilst taking as little damage as possible along the way.

That plan included cherry picking, ducking, dodging and using every advantage possible, whether inside the ring or outside of the ring.
Whether it be glove sizes, ring sizes, draining fighters, forcing fighters to fight at catch weights 10 pounds heavier than they'd ever fought before and then still coming in 2 pounds heavier than the agreed catch weight, meaning a possible 20+ pound weight advantage on fight night (Marquez).

And the end result of it all is a 50-0 record, and arguably the richest athlete of our era. With barely a scratch on his face.

You're the one that's in denial if you think Floyd ducked Cotto. It took Floyd and Cotto all of 3 weeks to make a fight after Cotto left Arum. It took Floyd and Manny meeting in private behind Arum's back to make that fight. Floyd called mosely out and you know what the haters said before he finally made a fight against him, they said Floyd would never fight Mosely. He fought those guys when he could. Margarito is the only reasonable one to talk about as a duck and even then, it was Arum.

Why is Mayweather the only boxer that gets judged by who he didn't fight?

If he was a sucker, why the hell did he give Castilllo and Madaina immediate rematches when they almost beat him?