Finally! Canelo isn't...

[SensFullViolenc]

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

you defeat the entire purpose of a lineal title when you start trying to enforce arbitrary rules.

the champion is the champion until he loses, leaves the division or retires. period.

So could Canelo defend against a string of welterweights at 155 and remain MW champion? Khan, then Thurman, then Garcia, and on and on.

TBRB already has rules in place - I just think they need to be updated.

There must be rules. You say that a champion remains champ until he leaves the division -- isnt that a rule?

And how do you determine if a champ leaves the division? According to both TBRB & the Ring, Canelo didnt leave MW when he fought for a title at 154. Because he didnt violate any of their rules.

[kafkod]

to keep track of the man who beat the man. no different than when the lineal chess title and fide title were split.

Anybody who cares enough about that can look at the record books and make their own lineal title list. Why worry about who the Ring, TBRB, etc, are recognising?

[kafkod]

that's not how words work.

it'd be like if i awarded the lineal title to whoever had the biggest ****. that isn't how lineal works, so if that's my criteria, it isn't a lineal title.

I don't understand what you mean by "that's not how words work".

Whether you agree with the Ring's criteria or not, it's a fact that the Ring award their world title belts to the fighters they recognise as lineal champs.

And here we have the problem with the whole concept of lineal titles in a nutshell .. no objective definition of what those criteria are or should be.

The man who beat the man doesn't work unless everybody agrees who The Man is, and how long he should carry on being The Man without fighting and beating legit challengers to his title.

A title you can retain forever by beating nobody but bums, or by not fighting anybody at all and not retiring either is a meaningless title, imo.

[original zero]

So could Canelo defend against a string of welterweights at 155 and remain MW champion? Khan, then Thurman, then Garcia, and on and on.

First of all, Canelo can do whatever he wants because his promoter owns the magazine and they're making up the rules as they go along to benefit HBO fighters and harm Showtime fighters.

Second of all, Canelo could fight the #5 fighter three divisions below him and that would count as a mandatory defense, but Stevenson could fight the #6 fighter from his division and still get stripped. Even though stripping violates the most basic tenet of the lineal title.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineal_championship

there is no agreed upon method of determining the starting point for each lineage and conflicting opinions on what to do when the current champion retires or moves to a different weight class, although there is agreement that any stripping of a title be discounted.

There must be rules. You say that a champion remains champ until he leaves the division -- isnt that a rule?

The lineal champion is the lineal champion until he vacates the title by retiring or leaving the division. You can't strip the lineal champion for not facing a mandatory, which is exactly what Ring magazine did. They violated the most crucial element of a lineal title. That governing bodies have no authority. The champion is the champion until he loses or quits.

[original zero]

Anybody who cares enough about that can look at the record books and make their own lineal title list. Why worry about who the Ring, TBRB, etc, are recognising?

The problem is that many fans don't realize Ring magazine was purchased by a promoter. Many fans don't realize Ring magazine violated the editorial trust. Many fans don't realize the ethical people that were running Ring magazine quit because of the corruption. Many fans don't realize Ring magazine invented a bunch of rules that have nothing to do with lineage.

Oscar De La Hoya uses the Ring "championship" to trick fans into thinking a fighter is the lineal champion when they aren't. If fans realized the magazine is a completely corrupt promoter owned propaganda mechanism, making up ridiculous rules to strip enemy fighters and protect in house fighters, they'd stop giving the Ring title any credence.

[original zero]

I don't understand what you mean by "that's not how words work".

If Ring magazine calls a Honda Civic a reptile, that doesn't make a Honda Civic a reptile. That's not how words work.

Whether you agree with the Ring's criteria or not, it's a fact that the Ring award their world title belts to the fighters they recognise as lineal champs.

But again, that's not how words work. The Ring's criteria makes it very clear that Ring titles are not lineal titles. They strip fighters for not fighting mandatories. A vacancy can be filled by #2 fighting #5. Both of these policies completely spit in the face of what a lineal title is.

Ring could decide to recognize a fighter as a cucumber, but that doesn't make Canelo a vegetable. Ring does not have the authority to change the meaning of words. Words mean what they mean.

[kafkod]

If Ring magazine calls a Honda Civic a reptile, that doesn't make a Honda Civic a reptile. That's not how words work.




But again, that's not how words work. The Ring's criteria makes it very clear that Ring titles are not lineal titles. They strip fighters for not fighting mandatories. A vacancy can be filled by #2 fighting #5. Both of these policies completely spit in the face of what a lineal title is.

Ring could decide to recognize a fighter as a cucumber, but that doesn't make Canelo a vegetable. Ring does not have the authority to change the meaning of words. Words mean what they mean.

Words mean whatever people accept them as meaning, and that can change over time.

I can't figure out where you are coming from here though.

The Ring still recognise Canelo as lineal MW champ, and he hasn't lost or retired, so I would say the Ring are using your criteria there.

TBRB stopped recognising Canelo because of something he said in an interview. According to your criteria, they shouldn't have done that, but you are approving TBRB and criticising the Ring?

The Ring don't actually have mandos for their lineal titles, btw, just a requirement that the lineal champ should fight somebody in their top 10 rankings within a given time period.

Personally, I think both TBRB and the Ring should have withdrawn recognition from Canelo when he refused to fight GGG and gave "I'm not a MW" as his reason.

[original zero]

The Ring still recognise Canelo as lineal MW champ, and he hasn't lost or retired, so I would say the Ring are using your criteria there.

No. Ring recognizes him as Ring champ. The Ring title has nothing to do with the lineal title. If it was a lineal title, they would have stopped recognizing him when he left the division and said he wasn't a middleweight champion anymore.

TBRB stopped recognising Canelo because of something he said in an interview. According to your criteria, they shouldn't have done that, but you are approving TBRB and criticising the Ring?

No, according to the long established criteria of tracking lineal champions, TBRB did exactly what you are supposed to do when somebody leaves a division and says they aren't the champion anymore. It is Ring breaking yet another tradition by continuing to recognize Canelo. Which they are doing because Canelo's promoter owns the magazine.

The Ring don't actually have mandos for their lineal titles, btw, just a requirement that the lineal champ should fight somebody in their top 10 rankings within a given time period.

That's a mandatory defense. Fight who we say you have to fight or we will strip you. Which is the exact opposite of how a lineal title works. Further, you don't even know the Ring's rules (probably because Canelo's promoter makes up the rules as he goes along), but it's not the top 10. It's the top 5. But not necessarily the top 5 of your division. The top 5 of any division. So Canelo could have defended at 155 against welterweights forever under Ring rules.

[kafkod]

No. Ring recognizes him as Ring champ. The Ring title has nothing to do with the lineal title. If it was a lineal title, they would have stopped recognizing him when he left the division and said he wasn't a middleweight champion anymore.

I keep telling you mate, the Ring champ is whoever the Ring recognises as lineal champ ... they are one and the same thing.

The fact that you don't agree with the Ring's criteria for recognising lineal champs does not alter the fact that the Ring do recognise lineal champs.


It would be insane for me to say that BJS is not the real MW champ, so that means he can't be the WBO MW champ.

BJS IS the WBO MW champ, irrespective of whether I think he should or shouldn't be!

No, according to the long established criteria of tracking lineal champions, TBRB did exactly what you are supposed to do when somebody leaves a division and says they aren't the champion anymore. It is Ring breaking yet another tradition by continuing to recognize Canelo Which they are doing because Canelo's promoter owns the magazine.

Recognise Canelo as what?

I'll give you a clue .. two words, first word starts with L and the second word starts with C.

That's a mandatory defense. Fight who we say you have to fight or we will strip you. Which is the exact opposite of how a lineal title works. Further, you don't even know the Ring's rules (probably because Canelo's promoter makes up the rules as he goes along), but it's not the top 10. It's the top 5. But not necessarily the top 5 of your division. The top 5 of any division. So Canelo could have defended at 155 against welterweights forever under Ring rules.

That's because the Ring don't have mandatory challengers for their titles. A mandatory challenger is a specific fighter who the champ is mandated to fight or forfeit his title.

The Ring champ has a mandatory obligation to defend against a top 5 ranked fighter, but that's not the same as having a mandatory challenger.

GGG was Canelo's WBC mando, and Canelo didn't have the option of fighting Lemieux or Andy Lee instead. It was Golovkin or vacate.

[Larry the boss]

I keep telling you mate, the Ring champ is whoever the Ring recognises as lineal champ ... they are one and the same thing.

The fact that you don't agree with the Ring's criteria for recognising lineal champs does not alter the fact that the Ring do recognise lineal champs.


It would be insane for me to say that BJS is not the real MW champ, so that means he can't be the WBO MW champ.

BJS IS the WBO MW champ, irrespective of whether I think he should or shouldn't be!



Recognise Canelo as what?

I'll give you a clue .. two words, first word starts with L and the second word starts with C.




That's because the Ring don't have mandatory challengers for their titles. A mandatory challenger is a specific fighter who the champ is mandated to fight or forfeit his title.

The Ring champ has a mandatory obligation to defend against a top 5 ranked fighter, but that's not the same as having a mandatory challenger.

GGG was Canelo's WBC mando, and Canelo didn't have the option of fighting Lemieux or Andy Lee instead. It was Golovkin or vacate.

not true at all man...Roy was ring champ but never lineal champ
Manny was labeled lineal after Bradley 3 but has never been ring champ at 147