Comments Thread For: Judge Rules Against Golden Boy in Its Lawsuit Against Al Haymon

[Tomjas]

all I know is.....

Judge ruled against Golden Boy in its lawsuit against Al Haymon

so PBC haters just took another L

we all know why PBC is unpopular, even if most won't admit it

if Haymon managed Pacquiao, PBC would be the best thing since sliced bread

but nope.....





if the argument against PBC was strictly boxing-related..... as-in, Haymon/PBC are bad for the sport because (insert reason here), then fine..... but it's not.....

any monopoly is normally a bad thing..... not sure if the UFC is the best model at all, and not convinced that Haymon will be any better..... but the problem is this.....

1) the current model is fatally flawed.....
* HBO/Arum are vultures, they have to go..... both have PROVEN that they would happily burn the sport to the ground if they could be king of the ashes
* exclusive network contracts are a major problem, further exacerbating the fragmentation caused by having multiple sanctioning bodies.....
* ANYTHING would be better than the current model, which is CLEARLY not heading in the right direction

2) to date, Haymon has been a HUGE success.....
* by all accounts, Haymon is much fairer with his fighters
* the increase in free-to-air boxing is GREAT for the sport

on the other hand, you got guys insisting that Haymon is the savior of boxing..... completely forgetting that Waddell & Reed are not the Salvation Army, nor are they boxing fans.....

exciting times imho

I'm sitting on the fence, to see how this shht plays out.

so far..... PBC > HBO/Arum, hands down

..... but if/when they ever have a monopoly, and Waddell & Reed shareholders start whining..... then we will find out what is more important to PBC, money or boxing.....

..... anyone think it will be boxing ?

Agree 100%

[OnePunch]

All of that is completely kosher as long as the only funds winding up in Haymon's pocket are the management fees. You have no proof and no evidence to suggest otherwise. You are accusing him of skimming off the top before paying fighters, which we both agree would be 100% illegal. But you're making the accusation for absolutely no reason and with nothing to back it up. You're completely delusional and continue to imagine these "crimes" that aren't actually taking place.





You're the one working at the furniture store Terry. You're the one that lost money in the fight biz. I've made money consistently for 19 years in the fight biz. I assure you my brain is functioning fine. I am living in reality while you are living in some imaginary fairy tale where you claim Haymon is ripping off all of his fighters, even though you have zero proof and zero evidence.

Why won't you just admit it's a conspiracy theory you invented? We both know that's what it is. Are we going to get to 100 pages with you still refusing to post proof?

Dude give it a rest. If Haymon wanted you on his payroll, you would already be on it. I bet you print out these posts and give them to your "friend" in the hopes that he relays to Al what a good loyal little soldier you are. LOL your too funny. Thirsty as hell, but still funny.

This thread could be 500 pages and you will never acknowledge the facts. You will just spout some more drivel about what band managers do, as if that has any relevance. Last time I checked, the Ali Act didnt apply to band managers.

You acknowledge that Haymon is responsible to cover any losses on an event, but then play dumb when it comes to any profit that might come from an event. Fighter purses are negotiated in advance and based off estimates, LONG BEFORE the event revenue comes in and is fully known. And the "promoter" is paid a flat fee. So what happens afterwards if the event did better than expected and turned a significant profit? What if instead of a projected $450,000 gate, it did incredibly well and they actually did $700,000 at the gate. Who gets that extra $250k? It doesnt go to the promoter, because he is already capped by a flat fee. And besides wouldnt the promoter pocketing an extra 250k go against haymons core beliefs? So who gets that extra 250k? Does Haymon make supplemental profit sharing payments to the fighters that were on the card? How is it divided up? And if he was doing that, why hasnt anyone heard about it? Seems like it would be a great thing to help attract new talent.

You go on and on about how Haymon never profits off the event, but only the management commission. But in his deposition he stated that he has waived all management fees to all the fighters appearing on PBC. So he makes no money off the event, and makes no money off management commissions for PBC fighters. Seems like a GREAT business model.

And finally you keep using the words "stealing", "skimming", etc, trying to attribute them to me, even though I have never once used those words. In general, there isnt a thing wrong or unethical about making money off of an event. IF YOU'RE A PROMOTER. The problem here is that Haymon is a manager who is actually functioning as a promoter, and his hired "promoters" are basically acting as event planners / site coordinators.

Now I am done with this, because I really have lost interest in it. You are just too arrogant and pompous to debate with. Its not remotely interesting anymore. So you can go ahead and have the last word and say Im avoiding your question or blah blah blah........

[AllBoxingAD]

Dude give it a rest. If Haymon wanted you on his payroll, you would already be on it. I bet you print out these posts and give them to your "friend" in the hopes that he relays to Al what a good loyal little soldier you are. LOL your too funny. Thirsty as hell, but still funny.

This thread could be 500 pages and you will never acknowledge the facts. You will just spout some more drivel about what band managers do, as if that has any relevance. Last time I checked, the Ali Act didnt apply to band managers.

You acknowledge that Haymon is responsible to cover any losses on an event, but then play dumb when it comes to any profit that might come from an event. Fighter purses are negotiated in advance and based off estimates, LONG BEFORE the event revenue comes in and is fully known. And the "promoter" is paid a flat fee. So what happens afterwards if the event did better than expected and turned a significant profit? What if instead of a projected $450,000 gate, it did incredibly well and they actually did $700,000 at the gate. Who gets that extra $250k? It doesnt go to the promoter, because he is already capped by a flat fee. And besides wouldnt the promoter pocketing an extra 250k go against haymons core beliefs? So who gets that extra 250k? Does Haymon make supplemental profit sharing payments to the fighters that were on the card? How is it divided up? And if he was doing that, why hasnt anyone heard about it? Seems like it would be a great thing to help attract new talent.

You go on and on about how Haymon never profits off the event, but only the management commission. But in his deposition he stated that he has waived all management fees to all the fighters appearing on PBC. So he makes no money off the event, and makes no money off management commissions for PBC fighters. Seems like a GREAT business model.

And finally you keep using the words "stealing", "skimming", etc, trying to attribute them to me, even though I have never once used those words. In general, there isnt a thing wrong or unethical about making money off of an event. IF YOU'RE A PROMOTER. The problem here is that Haymon is a manager who is actually functioning as a promoter, and his hired "promoters" are basically acting as event planners / site coordinators.

Now I am done with this, because I really have lost interest in it. You are just too arrogant and pompous to debate with. Its not remotely interesting anymore. So you can go ahead and have the last word and say Im avoiding your question or blah blah blah........

I just want to point out that you say alot of things that are adressed in the ruling, but you want to pretend that it wasnt adressed.

You want to people to look at facts but the main unavoidable fact here is that the courts looked into his business model twice now and have ruled in his favor both times.

I honestly dont have a clue how the money is divided up with extra profits and whatever, no one here has a look at the books, but you gotta stop using the ali act argument, its over.

[aboutfkntime]

Dude give it a rest. If Haymon wanted you on his payroll, you would already be on it. I bet you print out these posts and give them to your "friend" in the hopes that he relays to Al what a good loyal little soldier you are. LOL your too funny. Thirsty as hell, but still funny.

This thread could be 500 pages and you will never acknowledge the facts. You will just spout some more drivel about what band managers do, as if that has any relevance. Last time I checked, the Ali Act didnt apply to band managers.

You acknowledge that Haymon is responsible to cover any losses on an event, but then play dumb when it comes to any profit that might come from an event. Fighter purses are negotiated in advance and based off estimates, LONG BEFORE the event revenue comes in and is fully known. And the "promoter" is paid a flat fee. So what happens afterwards if the event did better than expected and turned a significant profit? What if instead of a projected $450,000 gate, it did incredibly well and they actually did $700,000 at the gate. Who gets that extra $250k? It doesnt go to the promoter, because he is already capped by a flat fee. And besides wouldnt the promoter pocketing an extra 250k go against haymons core beliefs? So who gets that extra 250k? Does Haymon make supplemental profit sharing payments to the fighters that were on the card? How is it divided up? And if he was doing that, why hasnt anyone heard about it? Seems like it would be a great thing to help attract new talent.

You go on and on about how Haymon never profits off the event, but only the management commission. But in his deposition he stated that he has waived all management fees to all the fighters appearing on PBC. So he makes no money off the event, and makes no money off management commissions for PBC fighters. Seems like a GREAT business model.

And finally you keep using the words "stealing", "skimming", etc, trying to attribute them to me, even though I have never once used those words. In general, there isnt a thing wrong or unethical about making money off of an event. IF YOU'RE A PROMOTER. The problem here is that Haymon is a manager who is actually functioning as a promoter, and his hired "promoters" are basically acting as event planners / site coordinators.

Now I am done with this, because I really have lost interest in it. You are just too arrogant and pompous to debate with. Its not remotely interesting anymore. So you can go ahead and have the last word and say Im avoiding your question or blah blah blah........

could be wrong here..... but I believe that Haymon is indirectly/invariably breaching the Ali Act..... at least in principle

problem is..... the Ali Act is legislation to protect the fighters..... who have never been in a better position

the Act most likely needs a rework

you have made some great points in this thread

[original zero]

This thread could be 500 pages and you will never acknowledge the facts. You will just spout some more drivel about what band managers do, as if that has any relevance. Last time I checked, the Ali Act didnt apply to band managers.

You have no facts for me to acknowledge Terry. Do you or do you not have proof Haymon is operating the way you imagined? No, you don't. All you're posting is nerd fan fiction you write in your sister's basement dreaming of Haymon violating the Ali act. It's literally insane dude. YOU. ARE. INSANE. Which of course you don't realize because what insane person does? But you literally have dozens of people telling you that you've lost your mind. You're just in complete denial.

You acknowledge that Haymon is responsible to cover any losses on an event, but then play dumb when it comes to any profit that might come from an event. Fighter purses are negotiated in advance and based off estimates, LONG BEFORE the event revenue comes in and is fully known. And the "promoter" is paid a flat fee. So what happens afterwards if the event did better than expected and turned a significant profit? What if instead of a projected $450,000 gate, it did incredibly well and they actually did $700,000 at the gate. Who gets that extra $250k? It doesnt go to the promoter, because he is already capped by a flat fee. And besides wouldnt the promoter pocketing an extra 250k go against haymons core beliefs? So who gets that extra 250k? Does Haymon make supplemental profit sharing payments to the fighters that were on the card?

Yes.

How is it divided up? And if he was doing that, why hasnt anyone heard about it? Seems like it would be a great thing to help attract new talent.

Maybe now you'll understand why he's attracting all of the new talent. He literally has almost every single young American world champion and several more about to be crowned. He has more world champions than he knows what to do with. Even ****ty little BOUNCE is getting multiple world title fights in one night that rival some of these awful cards HBO is producing.

You go on and on about how Haymon never profits off the event, but only the management commission. But in his deposition he stated that he has waived all management fees to all the fighters appearing on PBC. So he makes no money off the event, and makes no money off management commissions for PBC fighters. Seems like a GREAT business model.

You're an idiot. This has already been explained to you a million times dude. He waives his commission on the time buy shows because the time buy shows are loss leaders designed to increase the marketability of the fighter. The time buy shows have no way of breaking even. It's an investment in the fighters. He's allowed to spend his money on what essentially is a commercial for his fighters.

And finally you keep using the words "stealing", "skimming", etc, trying to attribute them to me, even though I have never once used those words.

Because you're too ****** to realize that what you're claiming he's doing would be stealing and skimming. Just because you're not using the words doesn't mean that isn't what you're accusing him of.

In general, there isnt a thing wrong or unethical about making money off of an event. IF YOU'RE A PROMOTER.

But he's not a promoter, so it would be wrong and unethical to make money from the event other than from management fees. But he's not doing that. You're just imagining that he is, even though you have no proof or evidence.

The problem here is that Haymon is a manager who is actually functioning as a promoter

Wrong. He's functioning as a manager. He's negotiating terms for his clients as a manager, hiring someone to run the event, making sure as much revenue from the event as possible is paid to his fighters, then he takes a management fee from that. You've repeatedly claimed he's also skimming money off the top, which he isn't doing. I know you didn't use those words, but since you're too ****** to understand the words you did use, I'm explaining them to you.

Now I am done with this, because I really have lost interest in it. You are just too arrogant and pompous to debate with. Its not remotely interesting anymore. So you can go ahead and have the last word and say Im avoiding your question or blah blah blah........

You've lost interest because for 40 pages, you've been asked to post your proof that Haymon is violating the Ali act and you don't have any. But since you're not an honorable man, you refuse to rescind the accusation, even though it's based on nothing but your imagination.

My arrogance isn't the reason you can't debate with me. You can't debate with me because your position has no substance. I'm being arrogant to show you how arrogant it is for you to make these ridiculous conspiracy theory claims and then refuse to back them up.

You're a loser and a failure. Stop making **** up about people who are actually succeeding. Jealousy is a ***** ***** trait.

[OnePunch]

You have no facts for me to acknowledge Terry. Do you or do you not have proof Haymon is operating the way you imagined? No, you don't. All you're posting is nerd fan fiction you write in your sister's basement dreaming of Haymon violating the Ali act. It's literally insane dude. YOU. ARE. INSANE. Which of course you don't realize because what insane person does? But you literally have dozens of people telling you that you've lost your mind. You're just in complete denial.




Yes.




Maybe now you'll understand why he's attracting all of the new talent. He literally has almost every single young American world champion and several more about to be crowned. He has more world champions than he knows what to do with. Even ****ty little BOUNCE is getting multiple world title fights in one night that rival some of these awful cards HBO is producing.




You're an idiot. This has already been explained to you a million times dude. He waives his commission on the time buy shows because the time buy shows are loss leaders designed to increase the marketability of the fighter. The time buy shows have no way of breaking even. It's an investment in the fighters. He's allowed to spend his money on what essentially is a commercial for his fighters.




Because you're too ****** to realize that what you're claiming he's doing would be stealing and skimming. Just because you're not using the words doesn't mean that isn't what you're accusing him of.




But he's not a promoter, so it would be wrong and unethical to make money from the event other than from management fees. But he's not doing that. You're just imagining that he is, even though you have no proof or evidence.




Wrong. He's functioning as a manager. He's negotiating terms for his clients as a manager, hiring someone to run the event, making sure as much revenue from the event as possible is paid to his fighters, then he takes a management fee from that. You've repeatedly claimed he's also skimming money off the top, which he isn't doing. I know you didn't use those words, but since you're too ****** to understand the words you did use, I'm explaining them to you.




You've lost interest because for 40 pages, you've been asked to post your proof that Haymon is violating the Ali act and you don't have any. But since you're not an honorable man, you refuse to rescind the accusation, even though it's based on nothing but your imagination.

My arrogance isn't the reason you can't debate with me. You can't debate with me because your position has no substance. I'm being arrogant to show you how arrogant it is for you to make these ridiculous conspiracy theory claims and then refuse to back them up.

You're a loser and a failure. Stop making **** up about people who are actually succeeding. Jealousy is a ***** ***** trait.

actually "succeeding"? Losing $400+ million is succeeding? Sure HE is succeeding. The people whose money he's pissed away? Ehhh, not so much "succeeding" going on there......

[OnePunch]

could be wrong here..... but I believe that Haymon is indirectly/invariably breaching the Ali Act..... at least in principle

problem is..... the Ali Act is legislation to protect the fighters..... who have never been in a better position

the Act most likely needs a rework

you have made some great points in this thread

You and I actually agree. But the problem here is that "at the moment" everything is fine and dandy with the fighters, because Santa Al is running around with Waddell's checkbook being the "irrational player", so people are inclined to overlook the concerns about how his model operates. But at some point that faucet will run dry, and he HAS to transition to a more "rational" model. What happens then? Are fighters going to be happy with some sort of UFC type payscale? Because thats the only way it could ever be sustainable. He would need network content deals in the hundreds of millions of dollars per year in order to not only keep his existing roster busy, but to expand as well.

Where we disagree is if the Act needs a rework. It doesnt. What it "needs" is to be enforced.

[jjsmyth87]

Which is exactly what Haymon does.




Wrong.




And if Haymon raises the number too high, the promoter will say **** off and Haymon can either lower the numbers or try to find a promoter who says yes.

Haymon is acting as a manager in every way. He's just a way better manager than what boxing was accustomed to, so he's been able to negotiate far better terms for his fighters.

Before, HBO would put up 2 million for a fight, the promoter would keep a million for himself and let the fighters split the rest. And if the fighters didn't like it, too bad, you're under an exclusive contract and you can sit home and starve or you can take the fight.

Since Haymon was smart enough to build a stable that isn't locked up under exclusive promotional contracts, he can say to the promoter, the entire 2 million goes to the fighters, you can make some profit and have your expenses reimbursed from other revenue streams, but the fighters are getting the bulk of the money and if you don't like it, you can sit home and starve and I'll find another promoter that'll say yes.

So the balance of power has changed. But Haymon isn't doing what you're imagining he's doing. You're imagining that he divvies up the pot how he sees fit and puts any "profit" directly into his pocket, thus creating a financial motive to actually lower the purses of the fighters. Which OF COURSE would violate the Ali act, but even separate from the Ali act, he has a fiduciary duty to his performers and in ANY BUSINESS that would be fraud and if caught, he could go to jail.

But you have NO PROOF and NO EVIDENCE that he's doing that and after 35 pages you refuse to offer any proof or evidence. It's just a wack job conspiracy theory that you invented that has no basis in fact or reality.

The proof is the fact that PBC is controlled by al haymon, and PBC uses investors money to bankroll putting on these big events with the goal of profiting from the event, which is what a promotional company does not managers or advisors. They do their own t.v. production, do all ofthe omotion of the events, and are paying millions for time buys, with the end goal of signing big t.v. contracts to make money for his company PBC and for his investors. PBC pays promoters a flat rate and split the money between themselves, the fighter, and the fund, instead of how its supposed to be which is a promoter uses his money or other peoples money like haymon does and promote event, handle logistics and are in charge of assigning purse amounts, and negotiate with networks. Every single thing haymon is doing with PBC is a violation of the ali act. The only problem is that haymon fighters are completely brainwashed. So much so that santa cruz named his son after haymon. Nobody could win an ali act lawsuit against Haymon because Haymon would have 15 fighters in court saying whatever haymon wants them to say. Funny thing is top rank fighters get paid way more than pbc fighters ever will. Tim bradley made over 20 million just for his 4 ppv fights which is more than adrien broner or keith thurman have made in their whole careers. He gets 2 million guaranteed for a tune up. Jessie vargas just went from fighting on undercards, and then very next fight made 2.8 mill in one fight, which is 2x more than said pbc fighters get paid per fight. Pacquiao made 20-30 mill a fight for 7 years straight. Haymon fighters can only dream of ever making that much ��To summarize even though its obvious haymon is violating the ali act by promoting and profiting off the many cards his company Pbc puts on every year, it wouldnt be provable in court because like the judge said in his summary judgement against de la hoya, the ali act was designed to potect a fighter from unscrupulous promoters like Don King and therefore and an ali act lawsuit can only be brought upon by fighters who have gotten screwed over by promoters, and connot be used prosecute anti trust lawsuits between promoters like de la hoyas recent lawsuit against pbc. Haymon fighters would be able to use the ali act to get out of their contracts if pbc fails and they end up like sms promotions

[original zero]

The proof is the fact that PBC is controlled by al haymon, and PBC uses investors money to bankroll putting on these big events with the goal of profiting from the event

This is incorrect. Profiting from the time buy events is impossible, nor was it the goal. It's like saying it would make Haymon a promoter if he bought a billboard and put Deontay Wilder's face on it. The time buys were an investment to raise the value of the fighters. A manager is allowed to invest in the marketing of their talent. On these events, Haymon wasn't even taking a commission.

On the traditional events, Haymon is simply taking a management commission like any other manager would. Terry is falsely accusing him of skimming money off the top, but Terry doesn't have any proof. It's just something he invented in his mind. 40 pages, 50 pages, 100 pages, that will not change. Terry is mentally ill and delusional. He's convinced himself of these fantasy scenarios were Haymon is committing widespread fraud and ripping off all of his fighters, even though there is absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

[OnePunch]

This is incorrect. Profiting from the time buy events is impossible, nor was it the goal. It's like saying it would make Haymon a promoter if he bought a billboard and put Deontay Wilder's face on it. The time buys were an investment to raise the value of the fighters. A manager is allowed to invest in the marketing of their talent. On these events, Haymon wasn't even taking a commission.

On the traditional events, Haymon is simply taking a management commission like any other manager would. Terry is falsely accusing him of skimming money off the top, but Terry doesn't have any proof. It's just something he invented in his mind. 40 pages, 50 pages, 100 pages, that will not change. Terry is mentally ill and delusional. He's convinced himself of these fantasy scenarios were Haymon is committing widespread fraud and ripping off all of his fighters, even though there is absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

this guy has his tongue so far up haymons ass that he cant see if its night or day. He thinks that Haymon is some kind of modern day Nostradamus who can predict, 6 months out, the EXACT amount of revenue, to the PENNY, that his events will generate.

And he can then use those perfect predictions to correctly estimate the fighter purses, every single expense, and the "promoter" salary, to the penny, and there is never so much as a single dime left over at the end. Every single cent of event revenue is paid out to other parties.

Its amazing. Awe inspiring. Why Haymon hasnt been nominated to Treasury Secretary is beyond me.



Edit: And he's too dense to even realize that he has admitted that Haymon violates the Ali Act. He admitted that Haymon absorbs any losses on the events, NOT the "promoter". Well guess what, a "potential loss" is indeed a "financial interest", which a "manager" is prohibited from having. Checkmate.