was Roberto Duran really that great?

[Wiley Hyena]

He started his career at 118 because he was 16 years old! He was natural at 135.

In your esteemed opinion. In mine, he started his pro career at 118 and wound up winning the middleweight title after his prime. Nobody else has ever done that that I know of. No way I bet against Duran at lightweight against anybody. Sorry. I'm just not ****** enough.

[BennyST]

I don't think you can use the losses to Benitez or even Leonard 2 as a gauge to how he would do at lightweight against Whittaker. He was not in any kind of fighting shape comparative to his lightweight days when he faced Benitez.

He was much quicker in his prime lightweight than he was when facing Benitez. He still had the smart defense and counter punching but at that weight it was his speed and aggressive inside combination punching that made him so much better than his competition.

It really would have been a hard fight to judge. I would still go with Duran by a decision but you could certainly not rule out Whittaker winning. His wins over Ramirez and Chavez were great. But, you Duran was a vastly different fighter compared to both these guys. His speed alone at lightweight put him years ahead of most in fighters because he was as fast as most speedy boxers. That is what gave him the edge over those type of fighters at that weight.

Whittaker never faced a guy as good as Duran and Duran never faced a guy as good as Whittaker at that weight. What Duran did do though was beat Leonard at a higher weight who was better than Whittaker (although Whittaker would probably not fight like Leonard did, you saw when Duran was focused and in shape he could make an ultra slick accurate boxer like Ray miss all night) and he did beat Viruet twice who had a style rather like Whittaker, though not as accomplished. He still beat him handily through his ability to make him miss and pay and his speed allowed him to mix it up with him in exchanges which Viruet would try to win by out speeding him. Whittaker was so successful against a guy like Chavez because he was so much slower. He would make him miss and then throw a fast combo before Chavez had time to even blink.

Anyway, it would be a great fight.

[wpink1]

Benny great great post...I agree...One thing I might add...Is that leonard did not use the jab..He usually fought throwing combinations off the jab and using angles...In this fight with Duran he stood straight up...and never attempted to box him except for slight mobility in rounds 1, 5, and 6 of the first fight. Also your so right he made loenard miss all night,,,except leonard hooks....Repeateldy through out th enight leonard missed looping right hands that duran slipped and got inside...However it was the hooks and upper cuts that landed in the last part of the fight..However ray was landing brilliantly but he is back was against the ropes..and Duran was landing too, many times both landed hard shots,,but it was ray whose back was against the ropes and this was never style that Ray fought before ( he did elect not to dance before ..vs Geraldo, Benitez..etc) with his back on the ropes..

If you look at the 1st round ( go to you tube) you will see how leonard could have boxed duran in the 1st fight if he wanted too. He slipped duran rush and spent him and was back out in the middle of the ring..and landed some punches...However HE DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO BOX DURAN AFTER THAT except for 2 rounds the 5th and the 6th..rounds in which he won on every scorecard....

I like facts and I go to the fight and judge..not sit here and just throw unsupportable facts....

[Panamaniac]

...In this fight with Duran he stood straight up...and never attempted to box him except for slight mobility in rounds 1, 5, and 6 of the first fight...it was ray whose back was against the ropes and this was never style that Ray fought before...If you look at the 1st round ( go to you tube) you will see how leonard could have boxed duran in the 1st fight if he wanted too...HE DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO BOX DURAN AFTER THAT except for 2 rounds the 5th and the 6th..rounds in which he won on every scorecard...

Leonard did not box Duran simply because he couldn't. Duran did not grant him the real estate to manuver. From the opening bell, Duran cut the ring off on Leonard and did not allow him the room to box. Leonard was forced to retreat into a defensive mode with his back against the ropes. Duran's modus operandi that night was boxing's version of football's pass rush.

Ray was allowed to box in the two rounds you mentioned because Duran was taking a breather. In the second fight, Ray had his way because Duran spent most of his time celebrating his victory with booze and babes. In the rather brief interim, Duran ate himself up to 200 lbs. and had to lose weight precipitously by fight time. He was in no condition to fight anyone, let alone Leonard.

Had the circumstances been different, I'm not sure Duran could have achieved the same level of physical and psychological conditioning for the second fight as he did for the first. In fact, Duran has never been more prepared for any fight before or since "The Brawl in Montreal." On that given night, his level of determination was an entity unto itself; no mere mortal could have denied him victory that night.

[Sweet Pete]

In your esteemed opinion. In mine, he started his pro career at 118 and wound up winning the middleweight title after his prime. Nobody else has ever done that that I know of. No way I bet against Duran at lightweight against anybody. Sorry. I'm just not ****** enough.

In my opinion what? In any sane person's opinion he was not natural at 118. He started fighting at 16, was nowhere near his physical prime. Stop being foolish.

Did you miss his fight with Dejesus by the way?

[Sweet Pete]

So did Pacman, you dont see him beating Kelly Pavlik do you?

That had nothing to do with what I said at all.

[wpink1]

Panamiac..what fight did you see. I will mail you $100 if you show me a point at anytime in any fight where Duran cut off the ring. You can not. Leonard showed absolutely no movement. That is the dumbest statment that can be made and one that shows you have not really digested the fight or simply swing on Durans nutts.

Duran gets all the kudos for the fight he fought, but dont try to make it more. He beat Ray that came right after him which needs no apologies. That is great, as Benitez and hearns both lost when ray came at them. Duran beat ray toe to toe. Never not one time except for round 1, did ray ever ATTEMPT to spin, or tie him up, or this is easy stuff that ray did since being an amateur and if you boxed you would realize how simply he could have gotten space to box at least for a brief period. When ever there was a break, leoanrd could have simply stepped BEHIND the referee and stepped OUT to the center of the ring..(like he did vs Hagler and Duran the 2nd time). That has nothing to do with Duran tactics, that has everything to do with Leoanrd chose to fight Duran toe to toe.

I think you need to really honestly get of the pipe and simply accept that Duran beat Leoanrd in a great toe to toe classic. Dont try to make it like duran cut off the Ring, and Ray tried to box him..I ask you Panamiac or however you spell you name..I ask you to go to you tube and look at rounds 1..then compare it to rounds 2 through 4 and 7 through 15. You will not see one round where ray boxed or tried to box except for rounds 1 5 and 6 and these rounds Duran did nothing.He tried but ray used a little moveement and either spent duran and kept it in the center of the ring. The announcers even stated why doesnt ray try to box Duran. "He is showing no movement at all, Where is that Great Leoanrd jab and mvement"

I have seen the fight at least 500 times and know it like the back of my hand. Panamiac..your a joke,,if Duran said he fell off the building before the fight, you would believe it.

What was different between fight one and fight two.Show me proven document where duran weight 230 pounds..I can show you statment from Duran and his trainers where they said he was in New York partying and ballooned up to 188. I think that one thing you forget is that Duran and other boxers always try to give bull**** excuses when they lose, it is nutthuggers that jump on their bandwagon. If you jump on anyones bandwagon for excuses then the same could be said for any fighter that lost an cried out I lost because of this, or that.

It is simpy an excuse. Your hero got humiliated, smacked around, and quit like a baby..where real men finish the fights no matter what. Mayweather broken hand finished the fight, ali many of times was not in his best shape, finished the fight ...(spinks..hmm Ali barely got in the gym for that fight), Toney finished the fight with Roy when he was clearly dehydrated..None of these fighters quit.

Just accept the fact that FACTUALLY.... Duran got his ass whipped repeatedly when he decided to fight great fighters, and not bums who had records like 0-3 or 1-4. Get a life, be a man and quit sucking Durans ****..He lost plain and simple.

[BennyST]

Benny great great post...I agree...One thing I might add...Is that leonard did not use the jab..He usually fought throwing combinations off the jab and using angles...In this fight with Duran he stood straight up...and never attempted to box him except for slight mobility in rounds 1, 5, and 6 of the first fight. Also your so right he made loenard miss all night,,,except leonard hooks....Repeateldy through out th enight leonard missed looping right hands that duran slipped and got inside...However it was the hooks and upper cuts that landed in the last part of the fight..However ray was landing brilliantly but he is back was against the ropes..and Duran was landing too, many times both landed hard shots,,but it was ray whose back was against the ropes and this was never style that Ray fought before ( he did elect not to dance before ..vs Geraldo, Benitez..etc) with his back on the ropes..

If you look at the 1st round ( go to you tube) you will see how leonard could have boxed duran in the 1st fight if he wanted too. He slipped duran rush and spent him and was back out in the middle of the ring..and landed some punches...However HE DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO BOX DURAN AFTER THAT except for 2 rounds the 5th and the 6th..rounds in which he won on every scorecard....

I like facts and I go to the fight and judge..not sit here and just throw unsupportable facts....

Yes, but I'm talking about Duran and Whittaker not Duran Leonard. However Leonard fought on that night, Duran made him miss. Whether he boxed or not (which he didn't) doesn't change the 'facts'.
This conversation is now about Duran Whittaker. I think we've all heard enough about Duran Leonard.

[Wiley Hyena]

That had nothing to do with what I said at all.

That is the equivalent of what Duran actually did IN REAL LIFE. Not your fantasies. lmao You're a nut.

[Sweet Pete]

That is the equivalent of what Duran actually did IN REAL LIFE. Not your fantasies. lmao You're a nut.

What are you even talking about you ****ing idiot? You make no sense, go **** your sister you inbred hick.