was Roberto Duran really that great?

[Wiley Hyena]

What are you even talking about you ****ing idiot? You make no sense, go **** your sister you inbred hick.

Yeah....right. How old are you? lmao
They shouldn't allow children to publish on this site.

[wpink1]

I stand by my offer to the Panamiac. he will not be able to find any rounds where duran cut off the ring, CUZ IT JUST AINT SO!

Panamiac will get on here and discuss another issue with is good, however he can not and will not be able to back his false statment.

Duran did a great job of beating Leonard at 147 toe to toe..No doubt about, however if anyone is not smart enough to see that Leonard chose to go toe to toe, and did not box, then they are simply being biased,,especially if on the other hand they want to say Duran had cramps for the 2nd fight.

[Panamaniac]

Leonard did not box Duran simply because he couldn't. Duran did not grant him the real estate to manuver. From the opening bell, Duran cut the ring off on Leonard and did not allow him the room to box. Leonard was forced to retreat into a defensive mode with his back against the ropes. Duran's modus operandi that night was boxing's version of football's pass rush.

Ray was allowed to box in the two rounds you mentioned because Duran was taking a breather. In the second fight, Ray had his way because Duran spent most of his time celebrating his victory with booze and babes. In the rather brief interim, Duran ate himself up to 200 lbs. and had to lose weight precipitously by fight time. He was in no condition to fight anyone, let alone Leonard.

Had the circumstances been different, I'm not sure Duran could have achieved the same level of physical and psychological conditioning for the second fight as he did for the first. In fact, Duran has never been more prepared for any fight before or since "The Brawl in Montreal." On that given night, his level of determination was an entity unto itself; no mere mortal could have denied him victory that night.

Benny great great post...I agree...One thing I might add...Is that leonard did not use the jab..He usually fought throwing combinations off the jab and using angles...In this fight with Duran he stood straight up...and never attempted to box him except for slight mobility in rounds 1, 5, and 6 of the first fight. Also your so right he made loenard miss all night,,,except leonard hooks....Repeateldy through out th enight leonard missed looping right hands that duran slipped and got inside...However it was the hooks and upper cuts that landed in the last part of the fight..However ray was landing brilliantly but he is back was against the ropes..and Duran was landing too, many times both landed hard shots,,but it was ray whose back was against the ropes and this was never style that Ray fought before ( he did elect not to dance before ..vs Geraldo, Benitez..etc) with his back on the ropes..

If you look at the 1st round ( go to you tube) you will see how leonard could have boxed duran in the 1st fight if he wanted too. He slipped duran rush and spent him and was back out in the middle of the ring..and landed some punches...However HE DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO BOX DURAN AFTER THAT except for 2 rounds the 5th and the 6th..rounds in which he won on every scorecard....

I like facts and I go to the fight and judge..not sit here and just throw unsupportable facts....

Panamiac..what fight did you see. I will mail you $100 if you show me a point at anytime in any fight where Duran cut off the ring. You can not. Leonard showed absolutely no movement. That is the dumbest statment that can be made and one that shows you have not really digested the fight or simply swing on Durans nutts.

Duran gets all the kudos for the fight he fought, but dont try to make it more. He beat Ray that came right after him which needs no apologies. That is great, as Benitez and hearns both lost when ray came at them. Duran beat ray toe to toe. Never not one time except for round 1, did ray ever ATTEMPT to spin, or tie him up, or this is easy stuff that ray did since being an amateur and if you boxed you would realize how simply he could have gotten space to box at least for a brief period. When ever there was a break, leoanrd could have simply stepped BEHIND the referee and stepped OUT to the center of the ring..(like he did vs Hagler and Duran the 2nd time). That has nothing to do with Duran tactics, that has everything to do with Leoanrd chose to fight Duran toe to toe.

I think you need to really honestly get of the pipe and simply accept that Duran beat Leoanrd in a great toe to toe classic. Dont try to make it like duran cut off the Ring, and Ray tried to box him..I ask you Panamiac or however you spell you name..I ask you to go to you tube and look at rounds 1..then compare it to rounds 2 through 4 and 7 through 15. You will not see one round where ray boxed or tried to box except for rounds 1 5 and 6 and these rounds Duran did nothing.He tried but ray used a little moveement and either spent duran and kept it in the center of the ring. The announcers even stated why doesnt ray try to box Duran. "He is showing no movement at all, Where is that Great Leoanrd jab and mvement"

I have seen the fight at least 500 times and know it like the back of my hand. Panamiac..your a joke,,if Duran said he fell off the building before the fight, you would believe it.

What was different between fight one and fight two.Show me proven document where duran weight 230 pounds..I can show you statment from Duran and his trainers where they said he was in New York partying and ballooned up to 188. I think that one thing you forget is that Duran and other boxers always try to give bull**** excuses when they lose, it is nutthuggers that jump on their bandwagon. If you jump on anyones bandwagon for excuses then the same could be said for any fighter that lost an cried out I lost because of this, or that.

It is simpy an excuse. Your hero got humiliated, smacked around, and quit like a baby..where real men finish the fights no matter what. Mayweather broken hand finished the fight, ali many of times was not in his best shape, finished the fight ...(spinks..hmm Ali barely got in the gym for that fight), Toney finished the fight with Roy when he was clearly dehydrated..None of these fighters quit.

Just accept the fact that FACTUALLY.... Duran got his ass whipped repeatedly when he decided to fight great fighters, and not bums who had records like 0-3 or 1-4. Get a life, be a man and quit sucking Durans ****..He lost plain and simple.

First of all and generally speaking, everyone has his own point of view of the same object. Several people can see the same thing one way, while several others may see it differenty. When scoring a fight, one judge may see it one way, while another may see it differently. Movie critics often disagree amongst themselves in their (re)views of the same film...

With regard to the first fight, I saw Duran blitz Leonard with bull-rushes which neutralized Leonard's room to box; you saw Leonard choosing not to box, thereby willfully engaging Duran at his own game. I can't change your point of view and you can't change mine, no matter how many words you employ in your futile attempt.

Finally, look at the length of your posts and then look at the length of mine and then tell me which one of us needs to "get a life."

[wpink1]

My post are always long...LOL,,,good point. However some things are simple fact. There is no debate amongst anyone ever about the fact that Ray chose the wrong strategy except for you. Not duran Not Leonard,,,that is partially why dave Jacobs, Leonard long time trainer left,,the other reason is that Jacobs thought that Ray should fight a tune up before getting back in the ring with Duran. Duran's camp spoke about their strategy of getting inside Ray;s head to infuriate him and challenge his manhood how it worked and also the fact that the referee Carlos Padilla after a prefight meeting agreed to allow the fighters to fight this time when he usually did not let brawling tactics.

I honestl do not know what fight you saw. Sure duran had energy, Sure he bum rushed Ray...However if you look at the fight, and understand how to box, there are many ways you can deal with this..something Ray did vs hagler..Hmmm Tie the fighter up, and even a padilla will at some time break them apart. Did you ever see leonard grad duran to tie him up..No he set back and allowed Duran to punch, and then he would volley back. When the round started he did not come out moving he walked right out to the center of the ring and went toe to toe...many times launching a bomb..as duran would do.

There generally is no disagreement even amongst Duran fans that leonard elected to go toe to toe. Duran did not force this, as you also can not see a round in which duran cutt off the ring as you mentioned falsly before. I challenge you to locate round in which Leonard was trying to move and Duran stepped to his left or Right to cut off the path that leonard lateral movement was headed with either his body or a punch...You can not as Ray used no lateral movement for 95% of the fight. In the 2nd fight you see Ray using Lateral movement and duran attempting to cut hm off, and sometimes he did trap a mobile ray, but in the 2nd fight ray countered with Hooks and upper cuts..vs overhand right hands...

Panamiac...I know boxing. Trust me. I have boxed. I have been asked to write for several boards, because of the insights that I look at and bring to the table. No one is right, I agree, but when debating issues look deeeeeeeep at the fight. Study the little things, and dont just go with the most popular myth as many times the people arguing that myth do not do the little things or study the fighters their habits or the fights. I have over 500 fights on DVD, that I study non stop, mostly Duran, Leonard, Hagler, Mayweather, Curry, Norris, Jones, chavez, Whitacker, Hearns and popular fights. I study them non stop, the big fights they have and the growth that these fighters have. I also study the fights they have vs good fighters but not great as in these fights you see a lot of technique issues whether good or great, then i study how they use these skills vs the toughest opposition.

Duran did not cut the ring off on Ray in the 1st fight, but he did beat him fair and square in a toe to toe slugfest and legendary fight. You cant take anything from Duran as he beat what ever Ray that was in front of him that night. Kudos...I simply point out that in exchange the 2nd Night you cant take anything from Leonard as he beat whatever Duran was in front of him..somethign duran fans simply start to offer excuses on.

[Panamaniac]

Duran did not cut the ring off on Ray in the 1st fight, but he did beat him fair and square in a toe to toe slugfest and legendary fight. You cant take anything from Duran as he beat what ever Ray that was in front of him that night. Kudos...I simply point out that in exchange the 2nd Night you cant take anything from Leonard as he beat whatever Duran was in front of him..somethign duran fans simply start to offer excuses on.

I don't care if I'm the only one on the face of the earth who saw Roberto cut the ring off on Ray (block his escape routes), I don't care if you're a fighter, and least of all, I don't care if you post another rebuttal the length of "War and Peace," you'll never convince me otherwise.

[wpink1]

You cant see what didnt happen...So your making up things to simplly try to appease yourself. Even Duran didnt see it or ever say it....So I encourage you in future debates instead of looking completely ignorant..when you post something that is false, make sure no one can go back and review it like the Duran fight. Make sure if the fighter himself backs your statment ast Duran and his corner have said they welcomed Ray leonard abandoning his style and going toe to toe.. You have never seen Duran or anyone else say Duran did a great job cutting off the ring.. or physically forcing Ray to fight his fight. What you always see is Ray made a strategic blunder and fought durans fight. Mentally beaten by duran before the fight stared and duran did the rest inside the ring..Great job Duran for winning both parts of the fight mental and physcial...but you are trying to make up stuff.

[porlie]

Roberto Duran beats up Davey Moore

[porlie]

Roberto Duran KNOCKS OUT Lou Bizzaro

[Panamaniac]

This is pretty good, but for a better quality video of the same fight (Incl. dramatic 7th-round knockdown, blow by blow and color commentary), click on the blue text in my signature below.

[wpink1]

i got a video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOKz39Lo27w