Comments Thread For: Arum Reflects on Mayweather's IV, Pacquiao Shoulder Shot Scandal

[ADP02]

You still aren't getting it. The point is that there are cases where an IV is more appropriate. I've never stated that he had hyponatremia, yet he may have. And if he did, it would be treated with an IV. It need not be hypertonic saline, depending on the type of hyponatremia, right? I've already showed you this.

Did Floyd run in the mornings like he usually does? Do you know? Did he have chronic dehydration? Did he have a form of hyponatremia that did not allow him to urine even after drinking water? Can this condition be chronic? Can it have an accumulative effect and persist until hydration by IV?

These are some questions that you should think about. Now again, if you can get his medical records, you can get to the bottom of it.

Then, your next task is to prove PED abuse. No idea how you can prove that with the evidence out there. Would seem very hard to prove that theory with the independent parties involved and the nature of the testing. Is there really a need to go on?

By the way, nice speculation about WADA being too busy and USADA meeting bare minimums. Don't you get tired of making up shlt?

Of course I understood what you are doing. You previously went in that direction though (hyponatremia). Still, the case in which WADA is finding it acceptable is cases where the athlete is in a bad place health wise and its an emergency type situation.


"WADA has clarified that the use of IV infusions to treat mild dehydration or simply accelerate recovery IS NOT an acceptable medical use of IVs in sport."

The above is at worst as far as Floyd's situation is concerned and that is even a stretch because he had already drank enough to FULLY REHYDRATE according to USADA's website, studies .....


hyponatremia: As I pointed out and even what you quoted, its not easy to determine which hyponatremia it is so the patient needs to get diagnosed carefully where he needs to be tested and monitored in a hospital type environment. If the patient is medicated incorrectly, the IV can do worse for the athlete and here we are talking about brain swelling!!!

Instead Floyd got an IV that appeared to be coming from one of these places and there are quite a few of them in Vegas:

http://myvitamintherapy.com/

"IV Vitamin Therapy will effectively deliver replenishing fluids, vitamins, minerals and amino acids into the bloodstream with 100% absorption resulting in quicker recovery times and improved overall performance."

"IV Vitamin C Therapy"

The above sounds like what Floyd had.


Floyd is a night owl and does his stuff late in the day/night. It was said that he had done some exercising on Friday evening but as I stated, Floyd did NOT do no marathon and unlike marathon runners, Floyd had access to taking whatever his team told him that he should be drinking/eating. Also, what they mean about marathon runners is that as soon as they finish their race they have hyponatremia and soon there after, need to be properly medicated and rehydrated. Floyd was not in that type of environment!!! Floyd was NOT doing anything that would make him require an IV that day because he admits to making weight EASILY and had a week to drop just a few pounds. That is NOTHING!!!!

From the time that Floyd had "little bit" of a workout and the time he had his IV was a long enough time to be rehydrated. Marathon running and Floyd's activity just before "The fight of the Century" is apples and oranges. Floyd was not running 42km race.


All your examples do not make any sense. You are just hoping but please read up what Chronic dehydration and hyponatremia is and you will realize that Floyd didn't have any type of dehydration that required an IV. Mild case of any type of dehydration did NOT warrant an IV. That is the issue here and you need to realize that!!!

Chronic dehydration occurs mostly in athletes who are inexperienced and young. Floyd, Ariza, Memo,..... highly unlikely! They monitored Floyd.
Chronic Dehydration is NOT what you think it is. Its not being dehydrated often. Its about not knowing what to do about it when you finish exercising and due to inexperience, you do not know how to rehydrate yourself properly and come your next workout, you may be dehydrated even before you exercise. Remember that I'm talking about an athlete not an old patient in a hospital.


So I had already thought about it and explained it to you.

[ADP02]

Sorry, man. Initially I took that as you trying to show I'm giving false info or something. Later I actually thought maybe my response was harsh and maybe you didn't mean it that way at all. Now that you cleared it up, I apologize.

Quick intro. I'm Travis from NY. Hence the nickname travestyny. Born and raised in NY. Lived there until 27, when I began traveling. Currently living in Asia, but I always return to NY.

No problem. Apology accepted!

[ADP02]

By the way, nice speculation about WADA being too busy and USADA meeting bare minimums. Don't you get tired of making up shlt?

USADA/WADA: Bare minimum - By now, you should realize that I'm not making Sh$t up.

a) I already pointed to you WADA and how athletes/world was not too impressed with them.

b) NADO/USADA .....

Here is what was reported and told to do to fix the issues and what should be done when the NADO is doing or just meeting bare minimum:



"(The Lack of) Effectiveness of the Testing Portion of Anti-Doping Programs

NADO/USADA
- Retroactive TUEs should be permitted only for gluco-corticosteroids and asthma medications and may be reported as negative only with the written approval of WADA.

- Because of micro dosages, rules should be established to permit testing during the periods when detection is possible.

- DCOs have been harassed, threatened, confined and subjected to attempts to be bribed in many countries

- Inherent conflicts of interest within the organizations that mitigate against vigorous anti-doping activities

- Lack of interest in effectiveness of anti-doping programs – sole concern is showing minimal Code compliance.

- Lack of information on how doped athletes are able to survive the testing system without detection (e.g., outside pre-knowledge, micro dosages, failure to observe provision of urine samples)

- Lack of commitment by many NADOs to serious anti-doping efforts

- Some prohibited substances may be detected in the urine or blood for only a short period; efficient testing cannot be done on the random basis often adopted




Weaknesses Observed
- Retroactive TUEs are frequently issued
- Micro dosages of EPO, GH, testosterone are hard to detect; very short window of detection
- Manipulation of test samples can occur
- TUEs are not notified to WADA in many cases


LABS
- Some laboratories suffer pressures from governmental or sport authorities
- Laboratories have been willing to disclose and discuss su****ious samples with the IF concerned and even the athlete involved
- It is much simpler for laboratories to err on the side of negative reporting than to report positive samples and then risk having to defend their analysis or to be exposed to public scrutiny, sanctions

- Standards of reporting positive samples may be set too high (to avoid any possibility of controversy); in cases of high profile athletes, laboratories may become risk-adverse and/or be pressured by ADOs

- Constant use by an ADO of a particular laboratory may lead to a level of financial dependence and erosion of independence

-“Flexibility” in Code allows for political interference (by stakeholders) that may restrict effectiveness of provisions that would otherwise be mandatory



ATHLETES

- Athletes who dope (and/or their entourages) know how to manipulate ABPs
- Athletes who dope (and/or their entourages) know how to manipulate plasma and fluid volumes by intravenous or oral intake.

[Dosumpthin]

Of course I understood what you are doing. You previously went in that direction though (hyponatremia). Still, the case in which WADA is finding it acceptable is cases where the athlete is in a bad place health wise and its an emergency type situation.


"WADA has clarified that the use of IV infusions to treat mild dehydration or simply accelerate recovery IS NOT an acceptable medical use of IVs in sport."

The above is at worst as far as Floyd's situation is concerned and that is even a stretch because he had already drank enough to FULLY REHYDRATE according to USADA's website, studies .....


hyponatremia: As I pointed out and even what you quoted, its not easy to determine which hyponatremia it is so the patient needs to get diagnosed carefully where he needs to be tested and monitored in a hospital type environment. If the patient is medicated incorrectly, the IV can do worse for the athlete and here we are talking about brain swelling!!!

Instead Floyd got an IV that appeared to be coming from one of these places and there are quite a few of them in Vegas:

http://myvitamintherapy.com/

"IV Vitamin Therapy will effectively deliver replenishing fluids, vitamins, minerals and amino acids into the bloodstream with 100% absorption resulting in quicker recovery times and improved overall performance."

"IV Vitamin C Therapy"

The above sounds like what Floyd had.


Floyd is a night owl and does his stuff late in the day/night. It was said that he had done some exercising on Friday evening but as I stated, Floyd did NOT do no marathon and unlike marathon runners, Floyd had access to taking whatever his team told him that he should be drinking/eating. Also, what they mean about marathon runners is that as soon as they finish their race they have hyponatremia and soon there after, need to be properly medicated and rehydrated. Floyd was not in that type of environment!!! Floyd was NOT doing anything that would make him require an IV that day because he admits to making weight EASILY and had a week to drop just a few pounds. That is NOTHING!!!!

From the time that Floyd had "little bit" of a workout and the time he had his IV was a long enough time to be rehydrated. Marathon running and Floyd's activity just before "The fight of the Century" is apples and oranges. Floyd was not running 42km race.


All your examples do not make any sense. You are just hoping but please read up what Chronic dehydration and hyponatremia is and you will realize that Floyd didn't have any type of dehydration that required an IV. Mild case of any type of dehydration did NOT warrant an IV. That is the issue here and you need to realize that!!!

Chronic dehydration occurs mostly in athletes who are inexperienced and young. Floyd, Ariza, Memo,..... highly unlikely! They monitored Floyd.
Chronic Dehydration is NOT what you think it is. Its not being dehydrated often. Its about not knowing what to do about it when you finish exercising and due to inexperience, you do not know how to rehydrate yourself properly and come your next workout, you may be dehydrated even before you exercise. Remember that I'm talking about an athlete not an old patient in a hospital.


So I had already thought about it and explained it to you.

WTF???? Lol.

If you suffer from Chronic dehydration that means you either:

1. Are too ****** to drink enough water on a day to day basis. (rehydrate orally)

2. have a medical condition that causes you to frequently become dehydrated despite drinking enough water. (Rehydrate via IV first then correct the medical condition)

Example : Irritable bowel syndrome. Constant diarrhea.



No matter what nonsense you spew, you don't have access to floyds medical records. Find out the OFFICAL DIAGNOSIS (from a physician) then and only then do you have grounds to challenge the validity of the TUE.




Until then you're just another butthurt pact@rd whos hero failed miserably on May 2nd.

[travestyny]

Of course I understood what you are doing. You previously went in that direction though (hyponatremia). Still, the case in which WADA is finding it acceptable is cases where the athlete is in a bad place health wise and its an emergency type situation.

This is your own interpretation. Again, the quotation that I gave you said there are CASES where IV rehydration is more effective than oral hydration. WADA does not say that there need to be an emergency situation, which is where you got in trouble with the word "or" before, which seems to make it clear that it need NOT be an emergency. The farthest they go with respect to a TUE is that the athlete would experience significant health problems if not treated. The USADA DCO was present and apparently witnessed the situation that called for the IV. It's pretty strange that you would take the stance that all of the people aware of his condition are lying or paid off being that you trust Pacquiao's lone doctor who works for a private practice. Here we have a national organization, at least 3 independent doctors on the TUEC, an independent lab, and WADA. Yet you believe all of the parties involved, from various different organizations, are involved in doing something shady. Does that really make sense to you?

"WADA has clarified that the use of IV infusions to treat mild dehydration or simply accelerate recovery IS NOT an acceptable medical use of IVs in sport."

The above is at worst as far as Floyd's situation is concerned and that is even a stretch because he had already drank enough to FULLY REHYDRATE according to USADA's website, studies .....

You have no idea what his condition was. Are there situations where an athlete can drink water and still not be hydrated enough? Yes. By now, you should know those situations exist, and so do I. Now if you can prove he did not have any of those, then you may be onto something. There really isn't much more to say about this.

hyponatremia: As I pointed out and even what you quoted, its not easy to determine which hyponatremia it is so the patient needs to get diagnosed carefully where he needs to be tested and monitored in a hospital type environment. If the patient is medicated incorrectly, the IV can do worse for the athlete and here we are talking about brain swelling!!!

I find hyponatremia to be quite fascinating in this case. Partially because what I've read about athletes drinking lots of water and still being unable to urinate. Also because of athletes that have dark urine due to this. Also because it is always treated by IV. Symptoms for chronic hyponatremia are not always present. Quite interesting. Was his urine tested for hyponatremia? Do you know? I sure don't. However, I have never speculated that this is what he had. But it's quite possible that a physician suspected this and decided to consult with USADA about hydrating him by IV in the case that it existed. First of all, we should all be aware that WADA's 50ml per 6 hour rule is there simply because they want to monitor anyone who wishes to take an IV for fear that it is being used to cover up PED use. In Floyd's situation, is that fear present? ABSOLUTELY NOT. He gave a partial urine sample before the IV. He declared the desire for an IV ahead of time. The urine was not allowed to be diluted. The only way for him to have abused PEDs is if USADA was paid off, the independent TUEC was paid off, the independent lab was paid off, and WADA was paid off. I don't see any other way around this. With respect to hyponatremia, it's possible that the physician presented his/her case about it and warned that if it's not treated, it would cause significant health impairment. 750ML of saline wasn't going to endanger Floyd, and there was no worry about doping. However, neither you nor I know what his diagnosis was, so there really isn't any reason to discuss it. What's important is that there are CASES where IV rehydration is more effective than oral rehydration.

Floyd is a night owl and does his stuff late in the day/night. It was said that he had done some exercising on Friday evening but as I stated, Floyd did NOT do no marathon and unlike marathon runners, Floyd had access to taking whatever his team told him that he should be drinking/eating. Also, what they mean about marathon runners is that as soon as they finish their race they have hyponatremia and soon there after, need to be properly medicated and rehydrated. Floyd was not in that type of environment!!! Floyd was NOT doing anything that would make him require an IV that day because he admits to making weight EASILY and had a week to drop just a few pounds. That is NOTHING!!!!

How much did he run (surely not a marathon, I agree)? Could there have been chronic hyponatremia? How long would any form of hyponatremia affect him if untreated? We are not going to talk about dropping weight again, are we? I thought that was already discussed with the case of De La Hoya who was on weight a full month out.

From the time that Floyd had "little bit" of a workout and the time he had his IV was a long enough time to be rehydrated. Marathon running and Floyd's activity just before "The fight of the Century" is apples and oranges. Floyd was not running 42km race.

Never said he was running a marathon. I said what WADA said. There are conditions were IV is appropriate. Also, there are situations where drinking does not rehydrate. The information is out there.

All your examples do not make any sense. You are just hoping but please read up what Chronic dehydration and hyponatremia is and you will realize that Floyd didn't have any type of dehydration that required an IV. Mild case of any type of dehydration did NOT warrant an IV. That is the issue here and you need to realize that!!!

Chronic dehydration occurs mostly in athletes who are inexperienced and young. Floyd, Ariza, Memo,..... highly unlikely! They monitored Floyd.
Chronic Dehydration is NOT what you think it is. Its not being dehydrated often. Its about not knowing what to do about it when you finish exercising and due to inexperience, you do not know how to rehydrate yourself properly and come your next workout, you may be dehydrated even before you exercise. Remember that I'm talking about an athlete not an old patient in a hospital.

So your proof that he did not have chronic dehydration is that he is too much a professional to have that. Well, how about the other professional boxers who had it? How about De La Hoya who worked with a specialist to get his weight down to 143 a full month before the fight and was able to maintain a stable weight. What say you? No way for him to have been dehydrated, right? I mean, you have to admit that according to your statement, and I think it's clear to see that you are WRONG. So what is there to further discuss. You can't disprove chronic dehydration. You can't even disprove any form of hyponatremia. You can't disprove any other case that would have merited IV use. Can you? YOU CAN'T!

Your case here is severely lacking.

Compare this to my case against Pac:

• What I can prove is that he went into the fight at normal health. Direct statement from your good doctor Neal. (By the way, knowing that he went in at full health is enough to dismiss any worry about what happened to him in the ring, as you know how boxing goes. So really, I could stop here.)
  
• I can prove that he didn't have any discomfort during the fight based upon him using the right, never showing any sign of pain, never mentioning the injury (though you and his team laughably deny this), and never mentioning the injury until at the press conference).
  
• I can prove that a bevy of lies were made about this injury and the story has changed multiple times. You know it and I know it. From him needing 30 - 40 days off, to just a few days to heal up. From Arum sending paperwork to NSAC, to Arum relying on USADA to send over proof. From the injury happening in the 3rd round, to it happening in the 4th round. From sparring being canceled due to the injury, yet he was seen with sparring partners throwing his hands at a park with no complaints, and his hands wrapped up ready to spar on one of the relevant days.
  
• I can prove he didn't rehab properly from this injury, as per his own statement that he relied on salt water.

COME ON, BRO. THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL A CASE AGAINST SOMEONE. YOU NEED TO STEP YOUR GAME UP!

[travestyny]

USADA/WADA: Bare minimum - By now, you should realize that I'm not making Sh$t up.

a) I already pointed to you WADA and how athletes/world was not too impressed with them.

b) NADO/USADA .....

Here is what was reported and told to do to fix the issues and what should be done when the NADO is doing or just meeting bare minimum:



"(The Lack of) Effectiveness of the Testing Portion of Anti-Doping Programs

NADO/USADA
- Retroactive TUEs should be permitted only for gluco-corticosteroids and asthma medications and may be reported as negative only with the written approval of WADA.

- Because of micro dosages, rules should be established to permit testing during the periods when detection is possible.

- DCOs have been harassed, threatened, confined and subjected to attempts to be bribed in many countries

- Inherent conflicts of interest within the organizations that mitigate against vigorous anti-doping activities

- Lack of interest in effectiveness of anti-doping programs – sole concern is showing minimal Code compliance.

- Lack of information on how doped athletes are able to survive the testing system without detection (e.g., outside pre-knowledge, micro dosages, failure to observe provision of urine samples)

- Lack of commitment by many NADOs to serious anti-doping efforts

- Some prohibited substances may be detected in the urine or blood for only a short period; efficient testing cannot be done on the random basis often adopted




Weaknesses Observed
- Retroactive TUEs are frequently issued
- Micro dosages of EPO, GH, testosterone are hard to detect; very short window of detection
- Manipulation of test samples can occur
- TUEs are not notified to WADA in many cases


LABS
- Some laboratories suffer pressures from governmental or sport authorities
- Laboratories have been willing to disclose and discuss su****ious samples with the IF concerned and even the athlete involved
- It is much simpler for laboratories to err on the side of negative reporting than to report positive samples and then risk having to defend their analysis or to be exposed to public scrutiny, sanctions

- Standards of reporting positive samples may be set too high (to avoid any possibility of controversy); in cases of high profile athletes, laboratories may become risk-adverse and/or be pressured by ADOs

- Constant use by an ADO of a particular laboratory may lead to a level of financial dependence and erosion of independence

-“Flexibility” in Code allows for political interference (by stakeholders) that may restrict effectiveness of provisions that would otherwise be mandatory



ATHLETES

- Athletes who dope (and/or their entourages) know how to manipulate ABPs
- Athletes who dope (and/or their entourages) know how to manipulate plasma and fluid volumes by intravenous or oral intake.

Dude, this is all complete speculation. You are wasting your time stating what you generally believe to be wrong with drug testing. Your problem is you presume guilt, and the reasons you give is because someone somewhere has a problem with drug testing protocol. Why can't you focus on the facts?

1. He gave a partial urine sample from before the IV.
2. His urine was required to pass the specific gravity test.
3. He passed 19 drug tests from an independent laboratory who had no way of identifying his samples.
4. The TUE was accepted by an independent team of doctors.
5. The TUE application and reasons for acceptance were sent to the World Anti-Doping Agency.

Is there really any more to say? Again, the only way he cheated:

1. USADA was paid off
2. The TUEC was paid off
3. The labs were paid off
4. WADA was paid off

USADA would have had to be at the forefront of helping, and I think it's clear that they could have done much better to help in the case that he was cheating. Why the hell would they choose to involve the TUEC and WADA? That's very risky for someone in their position who could have just stayed away and left no paper trail. USADA willingly put their head on the block for Floyd Mayweather???? Who, by the way, was set to retire in one more fight.

This should seem absolutely ludicrous to any rational person.

[Spoon23]

Really? Do you believe Pac beat Floyd?

Yes he did. And you only have to look to see the evidence. Unlike you who can't see the facts staring at your face that your running hugging ***** boxer loves PEDS.






You should be one of the judges in that lame fight.





Naive thy name is fl0tards hahaha

[Spoon23]

Mickey is actually a bear!

I thought Mickey was a serial killer?

So he's a bear and a serial killer..

Hmm.. Interesting..

Well, Enjoy your psycho Mickey toys. I know you collect all the variants. Wind him up and enjoy Mickey kill your make believe Girl friend's pooch whom supposedly owns your dog hahaha

[Spoon23]

Did you read what athletes said about WADA? Geez!

According to WADA rules, Floyd should NOT have been granted a RETRO TUE. If Floyd could get one then just about anyone trying to make weight can because most everyone loses a lot more weight (dehydrates) than Floyd and quite a few of them are completely drained and have to rehydrate many many pounds. Floyd boosts about how he does NOT have to dehydrate himself down 10-15-20-30lbs and that is why he comes in strong for his fights. Floyd said this right after the freaking IV!!!!! See video below

Oh man, now its about diarrhea! I guess you to cannot believe what came out of Floyd's mouth then. Floyd did not say, diarrhea, allergies, ..... he said it was due to giving urine, blood(10 days before) and exercising which had tapered off considerably on the day of the weigh-in.

So again, I get it that you too cannot believe Floyd but just admit it and then realize that since FLoyd lied as he did, then it was not because he was so hydrated that he required an IV.


What? We know what Floyd had and why. Floyd and his team said it on multiple occasions.


Does the below sound like a guy who just had a serious medical condition?
"I'm not one particular fighter that has drained himself 20 or 30 pounds. I'm a fighter that walks around at 150, 148...I'm extremely happy with everything...right now, my house is real, real peaceful and that's the way I like it," stated undefeated pound-for-pound king Floyd Mayweather, who invited FightHype.com into his home less than 24 hours before he steps into the ring to face Manny Pacquiao" - Floyd Mayweather

Another Ace by ADP02. Crystal clear as always.

[WesternChamp]

Did you read what athletes said about WADA? Geez!

According to WADA rules, Floyd should NOT have been granted a RETRO TUE. If Floyd could get one then just about anyone trying to make weight can because most everyone loses a lot more weight (dehydrates) than Floyd and quite a few of them are completely drained and have to rehydrate many many pounds. Floyd boosts about how he does NOT have to dehydrate himself down 10-15-20-30lbs and that is why he comes in strong for his fights. Floyd said this right after the freaking IV!!!!! See video below

Oh man, now its about diarrhea! I guess you to cannot believe what came out of Floyd's mouth then. Floyd did not say, diarrhea, allergies, ..... he said it was due to giving urine, blood(10 days before) and exercising which had tapered off considerably on the day of the weigh-in.

So again, I get it that you too cannot believe Floyd but just admit it and then realize that since FLoyd lied as he did, then it was not because he was so hydrated that he required an IV.


What? We know what Floyd had and why. Floyd and his team said it on multiple occasions.


Does the below sound like a guy who just had a serious medical condition?
"I'm not one particular fighter that has drained himself 20 or 30 pounds. I'm a fighter that walks around at 150, 148...I'm extremely happy with everything...right now, my house is real, real peaceful and that's the way I like it," stated undefeated pound-for-pound king Floyd Mayweather, who invited FightHype.com into his home less than 24 hours before he steps into the ring to face Manny Pacquiao" - Floyd Mayweather

hmm interesting..