who among suspected PED user got away the most: Pacquaio, Mayweather or Marquez?

[travestyny]

Alex Ariza as a strength and conditioning coach made sure floyd would be dehydrated so that alex can teach floyd how to re hydrate like a professional.

if floyd was not dehydrated then how could alex teach him how to re hydrate like a professional?

genius floyd fan and his logic

classic LOL

Once again, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Is it your belief that anyone with a strength and training coach will not become dehydrated? Would love to have your answer.

[Rath]

Once again, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Is it your belief that anyone with a strength and training coach will not become dehydrated? Would love to have your answer.

you are right Floyd don't have strength and conditioning coach before, never got dehydrated, hired Aruza plus memo on the side two of the best SC coach, flotd got dehydrated.

but still your logic is flawed.

why was floyd not dehydrated at 146lbs against berto?

[travestyny]

you are right Floyd don't have strength and conditioning coach before, never got dehydrated, hired Aruza plus memo on the side two of the best SC coach, flotd got dehydrated.

but still your logic is flawed.

Do you try hard to give idiotic statements or does it come naturally?

Do you know if Mayweather was ever dehydrated before? Do you even understand what dehydrate means?

You should never talk about logic. Do you really want to take a look at the logical fallacies you just made?

1. An athlete has a S&C coach, therefore the athlete cannot experience dehydration.
2. Floyd never used a S&C coach in the past, therefore he was never dehydrated in the past.

Both clearly idiotic statements.

[ADP02]

Chronic: persisting for a long time or constantly recurring.

At what point did he become dehydrated? You are a know it all. Perhaps you can tell me? It should be clear that a person can be at a stable weight and experience chronic dehydration because they are depriving their body of rehydrating to it's natural weight over a long period of time.

When did he begin training camp? Could he have been dehydrated throughout training camp?

The simple answer is yes being that he is in training for a fight. In fact:

"Researchers also estimate that 50 to 75 percent of Americans suffer from chronic dehydration and don’t realize it."
http://www.waterbenefitshealth.com/s...hydration.html

Does he have any symptoms that arise due to chronic dehydration?

Allergies - Yes
Kidney problem - being that his urine was dark, seems like it.
Fatigue - ?
Joint Pain and Stiffness - ?
Premature aging- ?
Constipation - ?

I don't have to list them all. I already went through this.

What does chronic dehydration have to do with severe dehydration? I don't think that question is relevant. However, what is relevant is that a TUE can be issued for chronic or acute dehydration.

a. The Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method in question is needed to treat an acute or chronic medical condition, such that the Athlete would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method were to be withheld.

If the doctors found him to suffer from chronic dehydration and felt that he had the possibility of suffering significant impairment to his health after a 12 round professional boxing match, that would be reason enough for USADA to grant the TUE for saline and vitamin C.

Your discussion of his weight - not relevant
Your discussion of how much he rehydrated - not relevant. He didn't rehydrate to his natural weight. I already explained that he could feel weak on his way DOWN from 149 and feel much better on his way UP from 149 after rehydrating and eating.

You say that he didn't need an IV because he rehydrated to 149. Do you realize the rehydration process included the IV?

The point is, you are stuck on severe dehydration, but you do not take into account that the doctors could have found him to suffer from chronic dehydration, which you have zero proof against (it's also my opinion that you have no proof against acute dehydration, but have at it).

And finally, you have no proof of PED use even if you were somehow able to prove he was not severely dehydrated (which again, is not the only condition in which a TUE is granted).

Do you understand now, or do I have to explain more?

This is great that you are now trying to explain this. Reason is that I can determine why you are using these terms incorrectly and as stated, what you stated becomes irrelevant in this discussion.

First of all, be careful where you get your information from on the net. Example, "50 to 75 percent of Americans suffer from chronic dehydration"


Chronic dehydration usually happens not when you are just dehydrated but when the athlete does not know how (for various reasons) to [B]adequately rehydrate themselves before, during and after his workouts and does so for several days to the point that they are experiencing mild, moderate or severe dehydration.
One assesses this by measuring one's weight before and after the condition occurred. If that is not possible then the less accurate way is to just check for clinical signs such as blood pressure, pulse rate, skin and so on. Reason it is less accurate is that with mild dehydration, you often have very few or no clinical signs. For example, Floyd's vital signs were better than normal.

You keep on bringing up chronic or acute but we really need to know if that correlates to mild, moderate and severe hydration state. I already told you how its assessed. By checking the athletes weight.

Mild but chronic dehydration?
"However, the consequences of mild dehydration are probably not serious, even if the condition is chronic. The only plausible adverse health effect of mild, chronic dehydration is that it might increase the risk of kidney stones — they form more readily when your urine is more concentrated, and possibly avoiding kidney stones is all the reason ......"



Now remember that Floyd himself said that with the help of Dr Ariza, Floyd had been eating and drinking properly so that dehydration was not an issue. Not until the day of the IV scandal.



AGAIN, You keep on bringing up chronic or acute but we really need to know if that correlates to mild, moderate and severe hydration state. I already told you how its assessed. By checking the athletes weight.

"Dehydration during exercise can be rapid (acute) or gradual (chronic)."
"Acute dehydration can occur in a matter of hours and is commonly seen in marathon runners and triathletes. As an example of acute dehydration was in Swiss runner Gabriela Anderson who nearly collapsed during the women's marathon at summer Olympics."

"Chronic dehydration is less obvious and occurs when athletes such as soccer, basketball players train daily in hot environments and do not drink enough fluids to adequately rehydrate.
To ensure adequate fluid replacement, body weight should be measured before and after training sessions.
For every pound lost, the athlete should drink 500ml (16 oz) of fluid. If weight is not within .45 to .9kg (1 to 2lb) of the previous day's weight, additional fluids should be consumed before exercising."


"Estimating hydration status involves measuring changes in body weight from pre- to post workout:
Each pound lost (.45) during practice represents 16 oz (.5 liters) of fluid. A 2% or more of body weigh indicates the athlete is not adequately replacing fluids lost through sweat. In addition to identifying acute dehydration from 1 workout, assessing weight changes over time may help identify athletes who are chronically dehydrated - those who lose several pounds over the course of a few days."

"Intentional Dehydration: While most athletes want to avoid dehydration, some athletes such as wrestlers, boxers, weight lifters, purposely dehydrate themselves to reach a desired weight class."


Remember that both Floyd and Manny are trying to make the 147 limit. Floyd said he made the weight easily. If dehydration was Floyd's concern, he had 1lb to play with before weigh in. We all know how much water weighs. Why not drink and come in at 146.5 or 146.75? Its not like he never came in at a higher weight than 146 for the 147 limit. Floyd said that there was Dr Alex Ariza who is an expert in this field and knew what to do. Why not do like I just said above?


The point is there are ways to assess all this and I explained it already in previous posts and now explained it so that you can understand taking your words into account.


.

[ADP02]

noticed that you guys have been having a feast on the subject of dehydration, chronic dehydration, extreme dehydration etc etc...and that's ok....

but while just skimming over the exchanges, some questions came to me;

have floyd been beset of such dehydration problems before? and how often?

if fighters were burdened with such dehydration problems, what good then are the s&c coaches? s&c coaches must be able to prevent dehydration at any stage of a fighter's camp....

Well that is the thing. During training camp Floyd is looked at like a hawk by his people. Go check out Maidana's camp as an example. Ariza was monitoring all kinds of stuff. So for what was called fight of the century, you would bet good money that Ariza was trying doubly hard.

Was Floyd dehydrated at any point during his training camp? For sure but that just means that Floyd needed to rehydrate himself by eating and drinking well throughout his camp. Floyd admitted that this was done up to the weigh in where he inexplicably became "I was extremely dehydrated". This is where I have an issue as should everyone else have. How does one even get extremely dehydrated on the day of the weigh in where the athlete and his representatives say that he can make weight easily?

Well fortunately we have Floyd's weight from 30 days out and we know that Floyd's weight does not fluctuate like someone like Hatton or Canelo. We even have Floyd's fight night weight where he is saying that "he was extremely strong physically.
Funny enough, Floyd fans were saying Canelo was OK but then we need to believe that Floyd was severely dehydrated?

Its all scientific and in Floyd's case, dehydrated state could have been assessed.

What may have happened?
Just like Lance Armstrong was able to get a doctor to provide a retroactive prescription that he had a saddle sore and required steroids.
Floyd was allowed to get a doctor to write some BS so that USADA can say "here is what Floyd's doctor said. So it must be true. Retroactive TUE is approved"



.

[Spoon23]

Alex Ariza as a strength and conditioning coach made sure floyd would be dehydrated so that alex can teach floyd how to re hydrate like a professional.

if floyd was not dehydrated then how could alex teach him how to re hydrate like a professional?

genius floyd fan and his logic

classic LOL

Yup.

Solid return volley chap.

Cheers!

[travestyny]

First of all, be careful where you get your information from on the net. Example, "50 to 75 percent of Americans suffer from chronic dehydration"

Not sure why you have a problem with this statement. The only purpose of it was to show that chronic dehydration is fairly common. I agree with you that it should be significant which is why I added the ISTUE guideline that stated it has to be such that without the IV the athlete's condition would cause a significant impairment to his health. I added that to my last post clearly.

Chronic dehydration usually happens not when you are just dehydrated but when the athlete does not know how (for various reasons) to [B]adequately rehydrate themselves before, during and after his workouts and does so for several days to the point that they are experiencing mild, moderate or severe dehydration.
One assesses this by measuring one's weight before and after the condition occurred. If that is not possible then the less accurate way is to just check for clinical signs such as blood pressure, pulse rate, skin and so on. Reason it is less accurate is that with mild dehydration, you often have very few or no clinical signs. For example, Floyd's vital signs were better than normal.

1. It's not about not knowing how to rehydrate because you know that boxers have to maintain their weight. It's clear that they can't go all out rehydrating as with other athletes, which is why boxers chug water after a weigh-in. This is obvious.

2. Once again, the ISTUE clearly states Acute or Chronic. I've asked you over and over what USADA defines as acute or chronic. From the ISTUE, it is evident that the TUE would be allowed if they find that the chronic dehydration would cause a significant impairment to the athlete's health if not treated. What did the doctors and the DCO notice. Can you tell me? You have been stuck on severe dehydration for awhile now, and now you finally realize that it is about acute or chronic with respect to whether it would significantly impair the athlete's health according to USADA.

3. I did state that his natural weight should be taken into account. When he first began losing natural weight, when did chronic dehydration take place? Being that he had to sustain an unnatural weight, it's clear to see how this can be chronic dehydration. My argument isn't even that it was. My argument is that you have no proof that it isn't. Why do we have to keep going over this when you know that you have no proof? I've found you plenty of symptoms of chronic dehydration. Some he had, most we DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

You keep on bringing up chronic or acute but we really need to know if that correlates to mild, moderate and severe hydration state. I already told you how its assessed. By checking the athletes weight.

WRONG. I bring up chronic or acute because it is explicitly what the ISTUE mentions. What we really need to know is how USADA defines these terms and, more specifically, what they found out about Mayweather that made them believe his condition would cause a significant impairment to his health if he did not have the IV. That is the key, and YOU DON'T HAVE THE MEDICAL RECORDS! At this point I'm like a broken record.

Mild but chronic dehydration?
"However, the consequences of mild dehydration are probably not serious, even if the condition is chronic. The only plausible adverse health effect of mild, chronic dehydration is that it might increase the risk of kidney stones — they form more readily when your urine is more concentrated, and possibly avoiding kidney stones is all the reason ......"

PROBABLY not serious. Did USADA decide to proceed on the side of caution because it's only saline and vitamin c? Was the risk of kidney stones enough to grant the TUE? These are questions that USADA can answer. You have no insight.

Now remember that Floyd himself said that with the help of Dr Ariza, Floyd had been eating and drinking properly so that dehydration was not an issue. Not until the day of the IV scandal.

WRONG. Where are you getting this information from? He said he rehydrated to 149. You somehow state that means he didn't need the IV. How can you be sure of that when by the time he was weighed he already had the IV?

Second, if you are talking about the video in England, he clearly states that he was dehydrated before the fight and Ariza taught him how to rehydrate like a professional so that he didn't go into the fight dehydrated. He is obviously not stating that dehydration wasn't an issue and never stated when it became an issue. He is saying that he was dehydrated and was taught how to rehydrate properly.

AGAIN, You keep on bringing up chronic or acute but we really need to know if that correlates to mild, moderate and severe hydration state. I already told you how its assessed. By checking the athletes weight.

You need to stop telling me how it's assessed and begin telling me how USADA assesses whether the condition, whether mild, moderate, or severe, would cause a significant impairment to the athletes health. What led them to believe that?

"Chronic dehydration is less obvious and occurs when athletes such as soccer, basketball players train daily in hot environments and do not drink enough fluids to adequately rehydrate.
To ensure adequate fluid replacement, body weight should be measured before and after training sessions.
For every pound lost, the athlete should drink 500ml (16 oz) of fluid. If weight is not within .45 to .9kg (1 to 2lb) of the previous day's weight, additional fluids should be consumed before exercising."

You tell me to be careful of what I find on the internet, and then you take quotations from "Nutrition and the Female Athlete" for gospel? Neither of us needs to rely on the internet for this. This was the job of Mayweather's physicians. That is the point. We don't know what he weighed after every workout, we don't know if he had the luxury of properly rehydrating until the weigh in, we don't even know if drinking water would have helped him at all. For example, here is another article:

You May Be Dehydrated Even If You Drink Lots of Water: Dehydration Risks & Solutions
http://bodyecology.com/articles/dehydrated.php

It's very easy to pull up things from online and say it supports one side or the other. We don't need to do this. What we need is his medical records. Point blank, period.

"Estimating hydration status involves measuring changes in body weight from pre- to post workout:
Each pound lost (.45) during practice represents 16 oz (.5 liters) of fluid. A 2% or more of body weigh indicates the athlete is not adequately replacing fluids lost through sweat. In addition to identifying acute dehydration from 1 workout, assessing weight changes over time may help identify athletes who are chronically dehydrated - those who lose several pounds over the course of a few days."

It is clear that the information you have is talking about individual instances of dehydration when it comes to acute. As for chronic, do you think that means losing several pounds over the course of two days....consistently for an entire 2 month training camp? Your information needs to be in respect to boxing and the nature of a boxer's training camp, not someone working out who experiences chronic dehydration after a few days. What happens if the chronic dehydration isn't dealt with after those few days?

"Intentional Dehydration: While most athletes want to avoid dehydration, some athletes such as wrestlers, boxers, weight lifters, purposely dehydrate themselves to reach a desired weight class."
Remember that both Floyd and Manny are trying to make the 147 limit. Floyd said he made the weight easily. If dehydration was Floyd's concern, he had 1lb to play with before weigh in. We all know how much water weighs. Why not drink and come in at 146.5 or 146.75? Its not like he never came in at a higher weight than 146 for the 147 limit. Floyd said that there was Dr Alex Ariza who is an expert in this field and knew what to do. Why not do like I just said above?

So you are saying that he should have just drank a pint of water to come in at 147? He was on weight. Why mess with being on weight when there are other factors that can affect it. He weighed in, made weight, and focused on rehydrating afterward. What is the problem with that? As you said, he had Dr. Alex Ariza who would show him how to rehydrated like a professional after the weigh-in, so there wasn't any problem.

The point is there are ways to assess all this and I explained it already in previous posts and now explained it so that you can understand taking your words into account.
.

Yep. And I hope you took my words into account so we can stop having this conversation. The bottom line is you don't have his medical records. You have been stuck on severe dehydration and you should now realize that your focus is misguided.

[tangalog2200]

Well that is the thing. During training camp Floyd is looked at like a hawk by his people. Go check out Maidana's camp as an example. Ariza was monitoring all kinds of stuff. So for what was called fight of the century, you would bet good money that Ariza was trying doubly hard.

Was Floyd dehydrated at any point during his training camp? For sure but that just means that Floyd needed to rehydrate himself by eating and drinking well throughout his camp. Floyd admitted that this was done up to the weigh in where he inexplicably became "I was extremely dehydrated". This is where I have an issue as should everyone else have. How does one even get extremely dehydrated on the day of the weigh in where the athlete and his representatives say that he can make weight easily?

Well fortunately we have Floyd's weight from 30 days out and we know that Floyd's weight does not fluctuate like someone like Hatton or Canelo. We even have Floyd's fight night weight where he is saying that "he was extremely strong physically.
Funny enough, Floyd fans were saying Canelo was OK but then we need to believe that Floyd was severely dehydrated?

Its all scientific and in Floyd's case, dehydrated state could have been assessed.

What may have happened?
Just like Lance Armstrong was able to get a doctor to provide a retroactive prescription that he had a saddle sore and required steroids.
Floyd was allowed to get a doctor to write some BS so that USADA can say "here is what Floyd's doctor said. So it must be true. Retroactive TUE is approved"



.

"Floyd was allowed to get a doctor to write some BS so that USADA can say "here is what Floyd's doctor said. So it must be true. Retroactive TUE is approved"

well, sorry i missed the above....kindly bear with me as i have not really been in the loop the past days...

you mean there is now a doctor who admits he diagnosed and advised floyd to have an iv?

[Cody8804]

Only one of these three destroyed guys while mysteriously getting bigger, turned down a career high payday because of a fear of needles/testing and hasn't had a knockout since he finally began testing, even when he was served up two guys on a tee that should have been knocked out

[Spoon23]

Only one of these three destroyed guys while mysteriously getting bigger, turned down a career high payday because of a fear of needles/testing and hasn't had a knockout since he finally began testing, even when he was served up two guys on a tee that should have been knocked out

Lol who's alt are you?

Pac was knocking out fighters ever since he turned pro. That said even with Alex Ariza, he never knocked out welterweights. He wins by volume of punches in his welterweight fights never a knock out.

Clottey, Margarito, Cotto, Bradley, Marquez.

He never won a knock out in the welterweight division. He wasn't able to carry his power at that weight division. Hence, nothing unusual about it.

What's the difference between the light divisions and the heavy divisions?

Light divisions are known to throw more punches, heavy divisions throws less. Pac not only is fast with his hand he is an elite.

In the nba, Michael Jordan can jump higher than most of his peers? Does it mean he takes peds? It's called special. Elite athletes tend to shine brighter with their God given talents.