Soviet/Eastern European heavyweights dominating 60s/70s era? Myth Busted!

[New England]

I don't understand what your point is.

i don't understand the sentences, never mind the proposed logic

[New England]

and yes, americans used to beat soviets in the amateurs. our best athletes used to box. our best > your best. this is science.


deontay wilder is just some dude from alabama. are 6'7", 230 lb athletes rare in america? wilder caliber athletes are on the bench in the NBA and college.

you wouldn't even think lebron james was real if he boxed.


we are all deontay wilder.

[Humean]

You'd be surprised!

lol, I suppose i'm not, was it that Elroy guy you had in mind? There really is no need ever trying to counter anything he says with evidence, he is away with the fairies.

[Nay_Sayer]

The p4p ~2 is WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO
Followed by MANNY PACQUIAO

Only until Andre Ward gets back into the ring...

[low blows]

I won't argue with that , without a different training the result would most likely stay the same.

My point is that the key factor is not nationality , if somebody is good, disciplined and is working with a top trainer, results will come, whether the guy was born in Moscow or in NY.

It's all training as Russian ***s and Polish gentiles produced legendary champions in the US. The Russians/Soviets weren't a sporting nation until the cold war began and they started sending national teams to the Olympics. Previously the nation never sent athletes to the Olympics less a few skaters in the Winter Olympics.

I think the improvement of the fighters from this region also mirrors the decline of the quality of American athletes that pursue boxing. Does anybody think that Calvin Brock, Nate Jones and Danell Nicholson are the equals of Rid**** Bowe, Mike Tyson and Ray Mercer as heavyweight prospects. Even second tier prospects like Shannon Briggs, Bruce Seldon and Tommy Morrison were better than that motley crew.

[Elroy1]

And to think I almost missed out on this thread! Lucky I went back a bit.

You have highlighted some good US victory examples there Lacey boy, it was a researched effort. Unfortunately a futile one!

Please note that some of the examples you have highlighted (like Ionas Chapulos) never won a European title, he was a replacement.

Now follow this closely...


1960: Italy wins at heavyweight, South Africa 2nd, Soviet bloc 3rd.
Soviet Bloc wins 3x more medals than the USA.

1964: USA (Joe Frazier) wins a close decision at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc 3rd. USSR+Poland win 6x more gold medals than the USA. Soviet bloc wins everything from middleweight to featherweight

1968: USSR wins the most Gold medals. USA (George Foreman) wins at heavyweight. Soviet bloc 2nd.

1972: Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd

1976: Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd

1980: USA boycotts the games. Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd
Superheavyweight Division is established 201+ lbs

1984: Soviet Bloc boycotts the games. USA wins a record 9 gold medals.

1988: Canada (Lennox Lewis) wins at superheavyweight

1992: Cuba, Germany, Italy win everything from superheavyweight to light-welterweight

1996: Soviet Bloc (Wladimir Klitschko) wins at superheavyweight. Cuba and Soviet Bloc win everything from superheavyweight to middleweight

2000: Great Britain (Audley Harrison) wins at superheavyweight, Soviet Bloc 2nd. Cuba (Felix Savon) wins at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc (Sultan Ibragimov) 2nd. Cuba and Soviet Bloc win everything from heavyweight to bantamweight.

2004: Soviet Bloc (Alexander Povetkin) wins at superheavyweight, Cuba (Odlanier Solis) wins at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc 2nd.

2008: Italy wins at superheavyweight, Soviet Bloc (Rakhim Chakhkiev) wins at heavyweight

2012: Great Britain wins at superheavyweight, Soviet Bloc wins at heavyweight and light heavyweight.



The Eastern Bloc was ALWAYS better than the US at boxing- overall!!!

And you already knew this anyway.

Myth busted you say?

Well that's what I would say

[Elroy1]

Some additional facts.. The MOMENT the other half of the world was allowed to box... The US was almost immediately booted out of boxing!

That's an amazing coincidence right!??

It's beyond doubt.. Had the Soviets been allowed to box professionally, we might have seen a few familiar names but many or even most of those old champs would never have existed.

That is a fact!

[Daddy T]

Some people are coming up with ridiculous ways to discredit past greats like Ali, Frazier, Foreman and other American heavyweights of their time. They do this by saying the only reason why they were dominating were because the Soviet boxers weren't allowed to box in the pros.

So I decided to look into this myth, which I find quite interesting.

First off, let's go to the amateur system of the day:



This is Joe Frazier in the Olympics '64 finals against Hans Huber of Germany.
As you can see - small gloves + no head guard.

Amateur boxing pre 1984 was very similar to professional boxing. Of course, the number of rounds were fewer and they gave standing counts, but they weren't as soft with the counts as they are in today's amateur boxing.

This meant a lot of guys in the amateurs were laid out.

Anyway, the point of this is that we can measure the highest ranked Soviet/eastern European fighters of their day by comparing them to the highest ranked American fighter of their day - in this case I'll be using the three musketeers of the 'golden era' Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman.

So, let's have a look at Muhammad Ali - though only a light heavyweight in his amateur days as a mere 18 years old.

He fought the highest ranked light heavyweight of the Soviet Union - Gennadiy Shatkov and didn't lose a round. In fact, he was hardly touched in the fight - and Shatkov was a 3 time gold medalist.

In the final he faced respectable Polish amateur Zbigniew Pietrzykowski, who he also beat for every single round.

Now, these were only light heavyweights though, so the next example will have a lot more relevance to today's boxing and especially boxing then.

Joe Frazier vs Vadim Yemelyanov

So the argument from one side is that Joe Frazier was too small to deal with a modern heavyweight - of course on top of the other argument that if the Soviet fighters were pro they would have dominated.

Yemelynov was 6'4 & 230 lbs. He was the number 1 ranked Soviet fighter. here's what happened:

[IMG][/IMG]

Safe to assume more rounds wouldn't have done wonders for Yemelynov who was getting tagged by Frazier's left hook and ultimately laid out.

This brings us to George Foreman, who was relatively untested by the time he came to the Olympics with roughly 20 amateur fights.

He defeated Polish #1 Lucjan Trela 4:1.

Foreman then proceeded to stop the tough #1 Soviet heavyweight, 6'3, 220 lbs Ionas Chepulis in the finals - giving him a Vitali-esque face in the process.

Here you go:

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Anyway, I don't see how anyone can make a sound argument that these Soviet fighters would have dominated the 60s and 70s when they lost quite badly against very green versions of the three fighters.

What are your thoughts?

good, sensible, accurate and well laid out post ... prepared to get assaulted and called a racist by the NSB Klitaratti ...

[Daddy T]

How is Elroy in green k by the way? Honest question...

[Elroy1]

How is Elroy in green k by the way? Honest question...

Because there are evidently some posters who can look past sensationalism and narrow focus and just see things for how they really are..

Rare concept in boxing circles historically but it's the future so you had better ****ing get used to it!!



I think this thread...

is pretty much busted!