How would Klitschko's career have looked without the use of illegal tactics?

[Elroy1]

The odds were 50-1 on an early knockout, but Elroy would have us believe that 37 year old Sanders who never had a big reputation, and was focusing more on reducing his golf handicap than being in the ring was a dangerous fight and one of the hardest puncher's of all time.

Talk about being a fanboy

I did not claim that Sanders was the hardest puncher of all time, I only claimed he hit hard.

Sanders was always a dangerous opponent.

What you say is true regarding Wladimir being expected to run through Sanders, it was a shock upset. Wladimir's underestimating Sanders was one of the key mistakes responsible for the loss to Sanders. But that his perceived threat doesn't/didn't detract from his "actual" threat. Kind of like YOU are underestimating Sander's right now!

Yeah whatever, Sanders has a good record, a good KO ratio, he did well vs Rahman.

Rahman's punching power no doubt also played it's role too, Rahman who was not mediocre but another very dangerous opponent, a good fighter and extremely hard slogger. I wouldn't bummify Sander's for that loss.

He also did well against Vitali.

So know, all indications are that Sander's was a dangerous and unique opponent who I am sure would have given Lennox some troubles also. Lennox, who had troubles with Frank ****ing Bruno! For Christ sake! And MAvrovic! And also got stopped by Rahman.

37 years of age is not old for a HW boxer who avoided damage as Sanders.

In fact, it could be considered the pinnacle of their career, and for Sanders it certainly was, just as it was for Lewis and Wladimir and Vitali! Where experience plays the role of keeping one at the top before the decline in athleticism begins to become more important than experience as in the 40's.

[LacedUp]

I did not claim that Sanders was the hardest puncher of all time, I only claimed he hit hard.

Sanders was always a dangerous opponent.

What you say is true regarding Wladimir being expected to run through Sanders, it was a shock upset. Wladimir's underestimating Sanders was one of the key mistakes responsible for the loss to Sanders. But that his perceived threat doesn't/didn't detract from his "actual" threat. Kind of like YOU are underestimating Sander's right now!

Yeah whatever, Sanders has a good record, a good KO ratio, he did well vs Rahman.

Rahman's punching power no doubt also played it's role too, Rahman who was not mediocre but another very dangerous opponent, a good fighter and extremely hard slogger. I wouldn't bummify Sander's for that loss.

He also did well against Vitali.

So know, all indications are that Sander's was a dangerous and unique opponent who I am sure would have given Lennox some troubles also. Lennox, who had troubles with Frank ****ing Bruno! For Christ sake! And MAvrovic! And also got stopped by Rahman.

37 years of age is not old for a HW boxer who avoided damage as Sanders.

In fact, it could be considered the pinnacle of their career, and for Sanders it certainly was, just as it was for Lewis and Wladimir and Vitali! Where experience plays the role of keeping one at the top before the decline in athleticism begins to become more important than experience as in the 40's.

You have claimed on many occasions that he is one of the hardest punchers of all times.

No, his actual threat was pretty much the same as his perceived threat. The reason Wlad lost is because Sanders was the better man on the night, most likely because Wlad's head was in a different place.

Would Sanders have beaten him again if they met? Probably.

I'm not even slagging Sanders for that loss, you brought it up. I said I thought it was stopped early. Rahman wasn't more than medicore. similarly to Sanders, he only has one good win on his record.

Lol Frank Bruno was 10 x the fighter Sanders was. And Lennox Lewis did not have "problems" with Mavrovic, he just looked bad. But I remember you tried to tell me that he was dropped against Bruno, Briggs, Mavrovic etc before proving to me that you never even saw those fights.

Lol you are deluded if you think any heavyweight is in their prime at 37 years old mate. Especially after a 15 year career like Sanders had had.

[Elroy1]

You have claimed on many occasions that he is one of the hardest punchers of all times.

No, his actual threat was pretty much the same as his perceived threat. The reason Wlad lost is because Sanders was the better man on the night, most likely because Wlad's head was in a different place.

Would Sanders have beaten him again if they met? Probably.

I'm not even slagging Sanders for that loss, you brought it up. I said I thought it was stopped early. Rahman wasn't more than medicore. similarly to Sanders, he only has one good win on his record.

Lol Frank Bruno was 10 x the fighter Sanders was. And Lennox Lewis did not have "problems" with Mavrovic, he just looked bad. But I remember you tried to tell me that he was dropped against Bruno, Briggs, Mavrovic etc before proving to me that you never even saw those fights.

Lol you are deluded if you think any heavyweight is in their prime at 37 years old mate. Especially after a 15 year career like Sanders had had.

Of course Sanders was the better man on the night and Wlad's head wasn't in the right space. Regardless, if Sanders was not a dangerous opponent, he wouldn't have been able to capitalise on it would of he. Bruno and MAvorvic are not on Sanders level, get out of here and Rahman was mediocre wtf? This guy fought great competition, what are you talking about! And he was never easy.

I thought LEnnox was down in both the Briggs and Bruno fights, I was mistaken though, it had been awhile since I seen them. I never claimed Lennox was put on his ass by Mavrovic.

I also never claimed Sanders was the hardest puncher of all time either. You are either confusing me with someone else or making up tall tales again (as is typical behaviour from you).

Depends on what your definition of "prime" is. Athletically your prime is about 30 (25-35).

Speed your prime is early 20's

Endurance the prime is around 35

Strength your prime is around 35-40 but can be significantly increased even further, especially at HW where older HW's are usually heavier.

Power probably peaks at around 35-40 lb for lb but again, can be maintained as it is based significantly on weight.

And experience always grows

But damage and decline in mental focus begins to take their toll from about 35 onwards imo.

There is no universal definition of "prime",

I think the prime of a boxer is when as many attributes are peaking simultaneously.

For pressure fighters, this prime is admittedly shorter. Tyson and Frazier were done in their 30's. Because they needed to be so sharp to be able to perform that style.

Long boxer punchers like Wladimir can be prime well into their 30's.

I expect Wladimir to decline after 40, but I also expect him to retire before he does so significantly too. Wisely!

[daggum]

Of course Sanders was the better man on the night and Wlad's head wasn't in the right space. Regardless, if Sanders was not a dangerous opponent, he wouldn't have been able to capitalise on it would of he. Bruno and MAvorvic are not on Sanders level, get out of here and Rahman was mediocre wtf? This guy fought great competition, what are you talking about! And he was never easy.

I thought LEnnox was down in both the Briggs and Bruno fights, I was mistaken though, it had been awhile since I seen them. I never claimed Lennox was put on his ass by Mavrovic.

I also never claimed Sanders was the hardest puncher of all time either. You are either confusing me with someone else or making up tall tales again (as is typical behaviour from you).

Depends on what your definition of "prime" is. Athletically your prime is about 30 (25-35).

Speed your prime is early 20's

Endurance the prime is around 35

Strength your prime is around 35-40 but can be significantly increased even further, especially at HW where older HW's are usually heavier.

Power probably peaks at around 35-40 lb for lb but again, can be maintained as it is based significantly on weight.

And experience always grows

But damage and decline in mental focus begins to take their toll from about 35 onwards imo.

There is no universal definition of "prime",

I think the prime of a boxer is when as many attributes are peaking simultaneously.

For pressure fighters, this prime is admittedly shorter. Tyson and Frazier were done in their 30's. Because they needed to be so sharp to be able to perform that style.

Long boxer punchers like Wladimir can be prime well into their 30's.

I expect Wladimir to decline after 40, but I also expect him to retire before he does so significantly too. Wisely!

i never knew all this. thanks doctor.

[Elroy1]

i never knew all this. thanks doctor.

I am not claiming universally and it's my opinion of course.

I would also judge that if, other than speed, that all these attributes peak in the 20's, well they're kidding themselves.

Past eras boxers never reached their true prime because they were annihilated early.

[billeau2]

i never knew all this. thanks doctor.

How dare you insult dr elroy! He studies mental ******ation and many feel that he has gone native.

[Joeyzagz]

Let me be clear here, its not Wladimir that sucks, if anything he is the last decent son of the era that was actually good. (1990s)

*He has amateur pedigree
*He has well over 30 bouts, actually 60 which is classic old school Joe Louis/ Dempsey

*He faced top contenders of the division(as pathetic as they were)
*He doesnt train at KFC Chicken

He is, like I said a solid Heavyweight but he climbs in the ring with unprepared scrubs who ate or juiced their way into the sport of boxing. He is a good guy fighting in the worst era we have ever seen. His biggest achievement in life was being born at the right time. 28 yrs old when Lennox retired.

[billeau2]

I get your point but youre forgetting that wlad was at his absolute worst in terms of confidence etc at the time and peter was very heavy handed and dangerous at that time despite being limited. wlad improved hugely after getting by peter. it showed in the rematch and in his subsequent bouts. I think that was the turning point for wlad in his career

who did he beat that was any real threat after Peter? Peter was dangerous to a heavy weight that could not move. One must also ask: who did Peter beat that was any good? These guys are all fish swimming in a pond of mediocrity.

For example, ****** Elroy compared Peter to Mercer.... ridiculous BUY lets compare Peter to a young and upcoming Shannon Briggs. Both guys were heavy handed and....Briggs was just a hell of a lot faster and better, could move, had more punches, etc. Well...Briggs was a sort of good win for Lewis. People complained bitterly that Briggs actually got a few licks in, they were all over lewis for this despite the fact that Lewis defended well and took Briggs out fairly quickly. Meanwhile Vlad goes tooth and nail with Peter, a similar fighter who had half as much talent and people claim a real victory, and they claim he was rabbit punched....yada yada. Why could't Vlad just take him out, dominate with his talent? I just think Vlad gets too much credit for this fight.

[billeau2]

But this actually IS the worst era for several reasons.

1. Hws now have little to no amateur experience. You got guys competing that honestly dont know how to box jumping in w Klitschko ( WK meanwhile had 140 fights of schooling before going pro)

2. HWs barely fight anymore. Povetkin had Amateur exp yes but only 26 fights before his title shot. Haye had 26 fights(4 at hw) and these are Wlads best opponents

3. Contenders are fighting unranked guys enroute to title shots, instead of fighting each other. (Haye, Povetkin, Deontay, Stiverne, Pulev, Thompson have zero fights between them? you dont find that odd) They fight hometown bums to maintain a gilded 0.

4. Guys are training at KFC Chicken Because there is no weight limit you got guys eating their way to Heavyweight like Flabz Eddie Chambers, kevin Johnson and Chris Arreola. They dont belong


I got several more but those are the core issues.

Bam!!!! should be end of thread, the cold hard truth comes in and visits Elroy and the dunce brigade buya!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elroy1]

who did he beat that was any real threat after Peter? Peter was dangerous to a heavy weight that could not move. One must also ask: who did Peter beat that was any good? These guys are all fish swimming in a pond of mediocrity.

For example, ****** Elroy compared Peter to Mercer.... ridiculous BUY lets compare Peter to a young and upcoming Shannon Briggs. Both guys were heavy handed and....Briggs was just a hell of a lot faster and better, could move, had more punches, etc. Well...Briggs was a sort of good win for Lewis. People complained bitterly that Briggs actually got a few licks in, they were all over lewis for this despite the fact that Lewis defended well and took Briggs out fairly quickly. Meanwhile Vlad goes tooth and nail with Peter, a similar fighter who had half as much talent and people claim a real victory, and they claim he was rabbit punched....yada yada. Why could't Vlad just take him out, dominate with his talent? I just think Vlad gets too much credit for this fight.

Peter is just as good as ****ing Briggs for Christ sake you idiot!

Briggs best win was Liakovich who always boxed like he was sick.

Other than that, Briggs simply wasn't that good.

Ripping off Peter is just childish.

Truth is, Wladimir's opponents are about comparable to LEnnox's.

Most Russians would claim that Wladimir fought MORE decent opponents than Lennox. Not agreeing, but THAT'S the type of thinking what goes on overseas.

Thompson beats up the Tyson that LEnnox fought
Haye destroys Grant
Chambers outboxes Tua anyday of the week
Chagaev outboxes Golota
Peter punches out Botha
Povetkin pulverises Mavrovic
Ibragimov has beaten Briggs and Holyfield.

And so on.