How would Klitschko's career have looked without the use of illegal tactics?

[billeau2]

I don't think peter almost ko'd him. 2 of those 3 knockdowns were rabbit punches and part pushes. peter actually took the much bigger beating despite not being floored. I don't think he was ever the same after that fight. his punch resistance went down after that. I also disagree about chagaev. I think he had descent power at that time. I agree that lennox had a better chin tho. those two knockout losses were from bombs he walked right into and he did avenge them in style. I think both lennox and wlad are great fighters. lennox was obviously a few pegs above

Do you think an ATG heavyweight would have to go tooth and nail with a figher of Sam's calibre? Do you think that Sam's chin, because of modern training and size is immeasurably better than other heavyweight's punch resistance? and do you think that Sander's qualifies as an awesome puncher who could have beat any great heavweight? Because this is how the Sam victory is used when trying to get Vlad a decent win by many knuckleheads here. Sam was always a ponderous fighter. Toney when taking him seriously had no real problems with him. Do you think Lewis would have problems with Sam? I don't.

[BattlingNelson]

Wladimir Klitschko used to be a great 1-2 puncher in his day. A truly great one. Hammering ramrod jab followed up by a missile right hand. No one can take that away from him.

However, the style he used then got him into a bit of trouble, notably 3 KO losses and 12 KDs by less than stellar opposition, to say the least. No longer the ramrod jab, instead we are left with a pawing pole stick that measures his opponents distance. Universally recognized as a very unattractive style.

Around 2005, after he started with Manny Steward, he started showing consistent illegalities such as holding, clinching, leaning, often more than 15 times per round and more than 100 times in some 12 round fights - even though the opposition were much smaller than himself i.e. Povetkin, Mormeck, Haye, Chambers and others who were held illegally.

My question is, how would his career have fared if he didn't use these illegal tactics? Likely he would have been stopped more times in his career than the 3 legitimate stoppages he already has, but to who and how?


What do you think? Still undisputed champ, occassional champ or merely contender? Was it a case of him just finding his best self, or did these illegal tactics have a positive effect on his career?

There has only been very few dominant HW champions who didn't use 'illegal tactics'.

[billeau2]

There has only been very few dominant HW champions who didn't use 'illegal tactics'.

would it be safe to say there are degrees of such behavoir?

[Elroy1]

Do you think an ATG heavyweight would have to go tooth and nail with a figher of Sam's calibre? Do you think that Sam's chin, because of modern training and size is immeasurably better than other heavyweight's punch resistance? and do you think that Sander's qualifies as an awesome puncher who could have beat any great heavweight? Because this is how the Sam victory is used when trying to get Vlad a decent win by many knuckleheads here. Sam was always a ponderous fighter. Toney when taking him seriously had no real problems with him. Do you think Lewis would have problems with Sam? I don't.

Samuel Peter is a world champion boxer, strong as a bull pressure fighter with solid record, pedigree and feared puncher. Highest calibre fighter! As opposed to other ATG HW's like Louis and Ali who went tooth and nail with every opponent they fought who were not 1/10th the calibre of Peter.

Yes, of course Sam Peter's chin is better than pretty much anything in previous times, LOOK at that head, jaw and neck!

Yes, Sander's is a hard puncher and he most certainly could have beaten any great HW. I could see him posing problems for Lennox too. Obviously Sanders would have been undisputed champion of pre 80's eras.

Samuel Peter defeated Toney 2ce.

Lewis had problems with a comparable HW to Sam in Ray Mercer.

As usual, none of your points were valid.

[Elroy1]

would it be safe to say there are degrees of such behavoir?

Yes. Muhammad Ali is in a league of his own.

Today most of his fights would be DQ losses.

What with Foreman shoving, Lennox holding and hitting, Tyson's biting and Holyfield's butting, it's safe to say that WK's clean and legal clinching in most of his fights is among the lesser degrees.

[billeau2]

Samuel Peter is a world champion boxer, strong as a bull pressure fighter with solid record, pedigree and feared puncher. Highest calibre fighter! As opposed to other ATG HW's like Louis and Ali who went tooth and nail with every opponent they fought who were not 1/10th the calibre of Peter.

Yes, of course Sam Peter's chin is better than pretty much anything in previous times, LOOK at that head, jaw and neck!

Yes, Sander's is a hard puncher and he most certainly could have beaten any great HW. I could see him posing problems for Lennox too. Obviously Sanders would have been undisputed champion of pre 80's eras.

Samuel Peter defeated Toney 2ce.

Lewis had problems with a comparable HW to Sam in Ray Mercer.

As usual, none of your points were valid.

Mercer eqivalent to Peter huh? JUNIOR time to turn the internet off and go back to school, your getting ******er, as if that was possible

[Elroy1]

You should kno better. Peter was never that good. At his best, when he was really motivated he beat Toney in a fairly tight rematch. These guys are also now claiming that Sander's was a devistating puncher....All to try to say that Vlad is on the level of a guy like Lewis, and furthermore better than a great fighter like Ali.

Peter at his best would not be trifle for an ATG heavyweight. Peter never beat anyone of any substance and was relatively slow....Vlad went tooth and nail with him...lets just compare the Golata that Lewis fought and took out with a few punches to that version of Peter where Vlad was floored, and had to really fight to win....Ridiculous to assert that this makes Vlad a great fighter.

And I want everyone to notice how Sanders (who I think the world of RIP) becomes a "devistating" puncher when trying to make a case for Vlad. Usually Sanders is considered quite mediocre otherwise.

Sanders was ALWAYS considered a dangerous opponent, except by Wladimir who expected and was expected to run through him.

There are no pre-Tyson ATG's, bar maybe Foreman, who could have survived Peter, he's also be universal champ.

Golota was longer and much more skilful than Peter. Agreed. Golota was also not as physically powerful or as tough as Peter. Golota was a stand up boxer, Peter was a bull like pressure fighter.

Regarding Toney, who you want to regard as a good fighter, but then use to downgrade Peter for having a tough fight with him? Can't have it both ways! Toney is good, and Peter beat him 2ce! Also your wrong, the Peter that Toney fought was extremely out of shape, the kind of "unconditioned" fat I talk about. The Peter than WK fought was lean with a ripped 6-pack (atleast in one of the fights).

Again, none of your points are valid.

And none of them had any evidence either.

[Elroy1]

Mercer eqivalent to Peter huh? JUNIOR time to turn the internet off and go back to school, your getting ******er, as if that was possible

If Lewis fought and beat Peter, it would have been a fine addition to his resume.

[Larry the boss]

**** off mate!

Cause he was such a bum before Steward wasn't he..

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xuu...shufford_sport

A real slouch that Klitschko!!

Is that... is that really THE Charles Shufford?

LMFAO...Charles Shufford???? who??

[Elroy1]

LMFAO...Charles Shufford???? who??

Alfredo Evangelista? Who?

Charlie Retzlaff? Who?

See how that works?

You know who Shufford is, his popularity playing Foreman in the movie "Ali" gave the above fight some profile.

Shufford retired with a pretty doubtful record but was fair when he fought WK. It was notable in the fight that despite playing Foreman, he was actually much larger than the real Geroge, and more skilled, of the 70's.

Several weeks ago I was in a discussion here regarding the only KO win of Ali's career which he looked good in. Against Big Cat Williams.

After pointing out the low quality of Williams in the first place and the fact he was untrained and weakened from the gunshot wound a year prior from which he had to have half his intestines removed, it was disclosed to me this...

"It's not the quality of the opponent he beat but it's the WAY he beat him that was great."

Well if that holds true for Williams, I think it should hold true for Shufford! Double standards.

The only difference is, Williams is held to be a good opponent, when Shufford is obviously much better than Williams, and would not have even been able to fight that Williams for medical reasons. And I call Shufford for exactly what he was, a journeyman opponent of Wladimir's!

So watch the fight and you will see how "journeyman Wlad" rose to so,e prominence and caught the eye of Steward in the 1st place.

You might learn something!

You'll find that WK's performance blows the Williams one out of the water.