Why is Joe Louis Rated so Highly?

[New England]

Joe Louis was a chinny fighter, he was dropped countless times during his career and we have the bad KOs handed to him by Schmeling and Marciano.

As mentioned previously, his footwork lacked, no lateral movement. The first Walcott fight was highly controversial, with a majority of the ringside boxing writers present giving the decision to Walcott. The fight showed that Louis had little answer to boxers who moved well. He was also truly outclassed by Ezzard Charles, who gave him a boxing lesson.

the first schmeling fight was a different case, but louis was totally done when he fought charles. he retired after stopping walcott, and made a comeback. he was hardly fit to be in a boxing ring when he fought marciano. he was a fraction of what he used to be.

[Capaedia]

-Walcott is a top tier guy...ATG? No.
-Conn is a great light heavyweight
-Schemling, decent fighter, good top level at the time but not someone who would be ranked in a heavyweight top 30

The other names speak for themselves. That's a good to very good resume but not great, the p4p elites have name after name of ATG fighters or HOFers, just look at what Ali went through, or Robinson, or Armstrong, then come back to me and say Louis compares in terms of resume.

Jersey Joe is what most would consider a heavyweight ATG. Top 20 probably all-time. The KO is a damn good win.

Billy Conn had a decent set of wins at heavyweight. Would've had even more if he hadn't gotten a shot at the title and gotten knocked out. Michael Spinks is considered one of Mike Tyson's best wins. Wasn't he a light-heavyweight too?

Schmeling is also probably a top 20 heavyweight. He picked up a good list of top-level wins across a long career. His best win is one of the best wins at heavyweight ever (Joe Louis, of course).

Fights between prime ATGs are very rare. Especially at heavyweight where a fighter we might consider great are few and far between. Louis top wins are about as great as they get outside the freaks like Muhammad Ali.

Compare his resume to Roberto Duran's for example. At the top you have Ray Leonard and then immediately after that, you skip down a tier to Buchanan, DeJesus and Palomino. Borderline greats perhaps but not set in stone.

He's great though, isn't he?

Most of Wlad's opponents are top 10 contenders too

I give Wlad credit for that, buuuut.

Louis fought the number one, then the number two, then the number three. He fought about 5 times a year so he cleaned out his division much more than Wlad ever has. He picked it bone-dry. It actually picked up in competition between contenders when he was off in the army.

For whatever reason (and for the most part I blame the contenders) Wlad hasn't gotten quite everyone he could have in the ring. I don't know why the fight with Chisora didn't eventuate for example. It was scheduled but it just never happened and was passed off to Vitali.

At the time in his career where Louis was mixing it up with Sharkey and Schmeling, champions of the previous era, Wlad wasn't in title contention. Let alone fighting men of that calibre.

A lot of this can be marked down to a difference in era, for sure. But it's in Louis' favour.

the first schmeling fight was a different case, but louis was totally done when he fought charles. he retired after stopping walcott, and made a comeback. he was hardly fit to be in a boxing ring when he fought marciano. he was a fraction of what he used to be.

He'll ignore this post if it's too inconvenient and just post something else about how **** Joe Louis was, my man.

Can you imagine how many times Wlad's chin would've been cracked if he fought as offensively as Joe Louis did though? I think Wlad's chin gets a lot more criticism than it deserves but damn. Louis put himself in the firing line a lot more often than even the younger, offensive [and stopped three times by non-contenders] Wlad.

[Banderivets]

wlad would have gotten knocked out of the ring considering that louis was fighting in A era of small puny gloves for heavyweights. taking a flush shot on the chin with 12 ounce gloves is A lot different then taking a punch on the chin with 5oz or 8oz gloves at heavyweight.



joke comparison.............

Good thread so far, but got to disagree with the above.

The whole thing about this new era is the size of the men fighting.

They might not have the skills of some old timers (and I think 85% of pre Ali old timers are grossly overrated with the exception of Louis) but the fact that you have guys 6'5" 250lb who don't trample over themselves like the giants of old is enough for many of them to knock out these 185-200lb fighters of old and in many cases avoid the shots of these very 185lb fighters with their 5oz gloves.

Sorry man, but unless we are talking about Bob Sapp, Wlad Klitschko is not getting KOd by a 5'10' 190lb whoever. He's only ever been TKOd by massive hitters, he's not that chinny.

As to the thread, with all the buckets that Joe fought, he still has one of the best, if not the best HW resumes.

At the same time, a bucket UPS driver of today deserves no less credit as some bucket toughman Joe has fought on more then one occasion.

[soul_survivor]

LOL GOAT clip

Good thread so far, but got to disagree with the above.

The whole thing about this new era is the size of the men fighting.

They might not have the skills of some old timers (and I think 85% of pre Ali old timers are grossly overrated with the exception of Louis) but the fact that you have guys 6'5" 250lb who don't trample over themselves like the giants of old is enough for many of them to knock out these 185-200lb fighters of old and in many cases avoid the shots of these very 185lb fighters with their 5oz gloves.

Sorry man, but unless we are talking about Bob Sapp, Wlad Klitschko is not getting KOd by a 5'10' 190lb whoever. He's only ever been TKOd by massive hitters, he's not that chinny.

As to the thread, with all the buckets that Joe fought, he still has one of the best, if not the best HW resumes.

At the same time, a bucket UPS driver of today deserves no less credit as some bucket toughman Joe has fought on more then one occasion.

Ali has, by miles, the greatest heavyweight resume ever, it's not even close. Foreman has a better resume than Louis too.

Also, someone earlier compared Louis beating conn to Tyson annihilating Spinks...what we have to understand is, SPinks beat the lenial heavyweight champion of the world on two occasions and stopped a man who weighed some 30lb more than him. Tyson trampled that man.

Louis went life and death with a man who barely weighed over 175 lb...

[New England]

Good thread so far, but got to disagree with the above.

The whole thing about this new era is the size of the men fighting.

They might not have the skills of some old timers (and I think 85% of pre Ali old timers are grossly overrated with the exception of Louis) but the fact that you have guys 6'5" 250lb who don't trample over themselves like the giants of old is enough for many of them to knock out these 185-200lb fighters of old and in many cases avoid the shots of these very 185lb fighters with their 5oz gloves.

Sorry man, but unless we are talking about Bob Sapp, Wlad Klitschko is not getting KOd by a 5'10' 190lb whoever. He's only ever been TKOd by massive hitters, he's not that chinny.

As to the thread, with all the buckets that Joe fought, he still has one of the best, if not the best HW resumes.

At the same time, a bucket UPS driver of today deserves no less credit as some bucket toughman Joe has fought on more then one occasion.

joe louis and lamon brewster are roughly the same size. same height. same reach. louis ran a lot, and was very lean in his prime for a HW who wasn't a mover. brewster, even in his prime, had some loose skin.


brewster was 225 when he fought klitschko, and he giggled a lot more than louis, who fought at around 200-215 at his peak. they're basically the same size.


to think some primordial advantage would go to a guy who is MAYBE 15 lbs bigger than louis naturally is freaking silly.


louis would absolutely demolish the lamon brewsters of the world. he'd knock wladimir's head into the cheap seats.

[New England]

Good thread so far, but got to disagree with the above.

The whole thing about this new era is the size of the men fighting.

They might not have the skills of some old timers (and I think 85% of pre Ali old timers are grossly overrated with the exception of Louis) but the fact that you have guys 6'5" 250lb who don't trample over themselves like the giants of old is enough for many of them to knock out these 185-200lb fighters of old and in many cases avoid the shots of these very 185lb fighters with their 5oz gloves.

Sorry man, but unless we are talking about Bob Sapp, Wlad Klitschko is not getting KOd by a 5'10' 190lb whoever. He's only ever been TKOd by massive hitters, he's not that chinny.

As to the thread, with all the buckets that Joe fought, he still has one of the best, if not the best HW resumes.

At the same time, a bucket UPS driver of today deserves no less credit as some bucket toughman Joe has fought on more then one occasion.

do you really think lamon brewster is a more dangerous puncher than joe louis?

[Elroy1]

In a historical sense, nobody should doubt the achievements of Louis. Unlike the manufactured achievements of Dempsey, his were real.

But we have to adjust "mythology" to "the truth".

The example of Billy Conn above as being some sort of good opponent is laughable! He was a total bum, nothing more or less. What's more he had absolutely no business fighting in the HW division even with the HW limit being much less than today!

You are talking about a guy with a highly questionable record, that began his career as practically a featherweight (!!!) And suffered multiple losses as he gained weight including 6 (!!!!) losses at ****ing welterweight (!!). There is no boxer today that would have any business fighting ANY HW today with a background like that, let alone a dominant HW champion.

Michael Spinks? You have got to be joking drawing such comparisons! Spinks was 6'2.5" tall. He was already a MW in the ammy's. He was ALWAYS a light HW as a professional and what's more, never lost a single fight at that weight (and in fact only suffered the one single loss to Tyson).

Spinks is a giant compared to Conn in terms of both size AND quality. And need you be reminded that when Spinks fought Tyson he weight something like 215 lbs. He was, even by the definition today, a HW! Billy Conn when he fought Joe Louis I don't think even made the HW limit back THEN!

What's more, the fight Spinks vs Tyson was a total mismatch. Spinks was far too weak to even fight Mike Tyson and the only reason Spinks agreed to be knocked out was for a last giant pay day.

It's only because of the fact that Joe Louis struggled to beat Billy Conn that he must be promoted as a decent opponent in order to keep the Louis mythology alive.

His 25 or so title defences still stands at the number 1 in total. But it must always be remembered that the opponents which he scored these wins against were so bad they would never even BE pro boxers in subsequent eras. Let alone HW boxers.

For instance consider what'd happen if Louis met Tyson? Anybody who envisions Louis surviving a single round against Tyson should not, cannot be taken seriously. Similar to Spinks.

[Capaedia]

Also, someone earlier compared Louis beating conn to Tyson annihilating Spinks...what we have to understand is, SPinks beat the lenial heavyweight champion of the world on two occasions and stopped a man who weighed some 30lb more than him. Tyson trampled that man.

Cooney a year prior? Gerry Cooney was never that good, but at that stage he had been ruined by a prolonged beating from Holmes, he had also heavily taken up drugs and alcohol. Although a great puncher he put up a very feeble effort against Spinks. Following and just not knowing how to find a target that moved away.

Very frustrating to see a man like that be guided to the top level. He just took left hand after left hand, no defense or ring IQ in sight. Stopping Cooney was a feat on size and size alone.

Holmes was a great win. No dis*****g that.

Louis went life and death with a man who barely weighed over 175 lb...

He struggled with a bad stylistic match-up, the weight doesn't have much to do with it. In fact that probably made his style worse for Joe Louis since he was very fleet for a light-heavyweight. The difference was even more marked at heavyweight. Conn was on a hot-streak at the time, and had success at heavyweight after the first fight.

Louis then dominated and stopped him in a rematch. Compare how Conn did compared to how his largest opponents did. They were sitting ducks since they weren't elusive enough to avoid Louis.

[Capaedia]

Elroy, despite the infamy that you have gained (and I'm sure you don't mind that at all), I give you credence for quite a few of the things you say. Like the bolded below.

There is a lot of shroud and mystery that boxings 'mythology' benefits from. But I do not think it applies to Louis anywhere near as much as you say it does. In fact, I'm pretty sure he is one of the few that proved he was an advanced fighter and definitely no fluke

In a historical sense, nobody should doubt the achievements of Louis. Unlike the manufactured achievements of Dempsey, his were real.

But we have to adjust "mythology" to "the truth".

The example of Billy Conn above as being some sort of good opponent is laughable! He was a total bum, nothing more or less. What's more he had absolutely no business fighting in the HW division even with the HW limit being much less than today!

You are talking about a guy with a highly questionable record, that began his career as practically a featherweight (!!!) And suffered multiple losses as he gained weight including 6 (!!!!) losses at ****ing welterweight (!!). There is no boxer today that would have any business fighting ANY HW today with a background like that, let alone a dominant HW champion.

I do not penalize fighters for losses early in their career, much less for weight-jumping.

Conn was not a bum. When he matured he was a very good middleweight, and a great light heavyweight. Without the amateur programs that are in place now, he, like a lot of fighters back then and even now, learned on the job. He got better as he got older to a point where he reeled off 26 consecutive victories only interrupted by the loss to Joe Louis. Then resuming his winning ways until again, derailed by Joe Louis.

Like modern fighter Salido, he has done his learning on the job. His style was all about finesse and IQ which is why he had that many bumps in the road.

Michael Spinks? You have got to be joking drawing such comparisons! Spinks was 6'2.5" tall. He was already a MW in the ammy's. He was ALWAYS a light HW as a professional and what's more, never lost a single fight at that weight (and in fact only suffered the one single loss to Tyson).

Spinks is a giant compared to Conn in terms of both size AND quality. And need you be reminded that when Spinks fought Tyson he weight something like 215 lbs. He was, even by the definition today, a HW! Billy Conn when he fought Joe Louis I don't think even made the HW limit back THEN!

Spinks was better than Conn, and bigger. I don't dispute that. But he had no style advantage over Tyson, in fact quite the opposite.

He had an amateur career to iron him out and make him ready for the professional part of his career. Conn did not. Conn turned professional at 16.

[billeau2]

Good thread so far, but got to disagree with the above.

The whole thing about this new era is the size of the men fighting.

They might not have the skills of some old timers (and I think 85% of pre Ali old timers are grossly overrated with the exception of Louis) but the fact that you have guys 6'5" 250lb who don't trample over themselves like the giants of old is enough for many of them to knock out these 185-200lb fighters of old and in many cases avoid the shots of these very 185lb fighters with their 5oz gloves.

Sorry man, but unless we are talking about Bob Sapp, Wlad Klitschko is not getting KOd by a 5'10' 190lb whoever. He's only ever been TKOd by massive hitters, he's not that chinny.

As to the thread, with all the buckets that Joe fought, he still has one of the best, if not the best HW resumes.

At the same time, a bucket UPS driver of today deserves no less credit as some bucket toughman Joe has fought on more then one occasion.

Not only is there absolutely no proof of your assertions regarding size....there is much proof to the contrary. Have you seen a picture of Prima Canera for example? he was hardly the uncoordinated lumox you characterize big men as of that time. People like you and Weltz*** perpetrate these ideas with absolutely no sense of looking at the data. Furthermore, people who actually saw guys fight across generations have weighed in on these points and seem to disagree with your assertion.

Just off the top of my head we have people like James Toney fighting the big hard men of today and seeming to do ok despite his build, his size and what-not. Chris Byrd was not totally outclassed because of his size either...And this is at a cursory glance! You see how ridiculous these assertions are? They have been proven patently wrong!