The Muhammad Ali who beat Cleveland Williams...

[Elroy1]

Foreman,Frazier x3,Norton x3,Spinks x2,Liston x2. Do you want me to go on?

beyonce hasn't got the opponents to be greater lol.When Wilder fights Fury(if he has the balls) the hype stops. 32-0 against bums.

Your a bit slow so I'll put it in points for you.

Ali in his first career did not fight Foreman, or Frazier, or Norton, or Spinks.

The only fighter on your list that Ali did fight was Liston.

Liston, who never once beat what would today be regarded as a decent opponent. Who was so slow that he rivals 320lb Valuev.

Your telling me that this Liston, whom Ali fought to a draw on the cards until he became injured. And subsequently threw in the towel in the 2nd (the alternative to which, that Liston is the chinniest boxer of all time does Ali even less credit), your telling me that this Liston represents a greater achievement than 32 straight KO's within 4 at modern HW?

I would think you were a ******.

But I'd just call you "misinformed"

[Elroy1]

SMH @ what this thread is turning into.

Ali fought inspired against Williams. That's not to say he wasn't motivated in other fights but he had ridiculous energy that night and was a prime ATG at his peak. An Ali like that beats any HW I saw.

Ali was inspired by the fact his opponent only had half a stomach. That he could parade around without much fear of losing or being hurt.

His opponent was always slower, was a featherfist at 200+, and was always a bum.

Based on that customer and performance compared to others there is not even a case for him being a top 100 HW boxer.

Fact.

[HughJass]

Your a bit slow so I'll put it in points for you.

Ali in his first career did not fight Foreman, or Frazier, or Norton, or Spinks.

The only fighter on your list that Ali did fight was Liston.

Liston, who never once beat what would today be regarded as a decent opponent. Who was so slow that he rivals 320lb Valuev.

Your telling me that this Liston, whom Ali fought to a draw on the cards until he became injured. And subsequently threw in the towel in the 2nd (the alternative to which, that Liston is the chinniest boxer of all time does Ali even less credit), your telling me that this Liston represents a greater achievement than 32 straight KO's within 4 at modern HW?

I would think you were a ******.

But I'd just call you "misinformed"

******ed yes,Beyonce will never be as good or great as Ali lol.First career,a career is a career you nonce

[HughJass]

Remember guise he's the future Hahahaa

[Elroy1]

******ed yes,Beyonce will never be as good or great as Ali lol.First career,a career is a career you nonce

I had basically 2 objections to your thread.

First that Ali was the greatest HW, which is simply nonsense.

And 2nd, and most importantly that you based this on a bum fight at a time when Ali was not strong enough to compete as a modern HW boxer and never fought what would today be regarded as a decent opponent.

That was the main reason I discriminated between Ali 1 and Ali 2. Because the guy was most definitely stronger and more experienced in his 2nd sorte and also definitely fought a much better and stronger class of opponents!

[LacedUp]

Laced Up... Go to Williams record.. Knock off his cruiser opposition.

Fancy that, Williams is a featherfist on paper.

Pull up a picture of Williams. He does not look anything like what we would today describe as a combat athlete.

Who could Williams pose any punch threat to today? I can't think of a single HW or even a top level CW that Williams would pose any punch threat to whatsoever.

Why would i do that? You seem to believe that your ridiculous rules are now the standard.

You believe bigger is better. You've even said fat is better. You have even said Mormeck from the Wlad fight is better than young Foreman.

Why should I give such ******ed notions the time of my day?

Anyway, George Foreman said Cleveland Williams was the hardest puncher he ever met (in sparring mind you). I think I'll take Foreman's word over an obsessed Ali hater who tries to spin everything to work your little agenda.

[freethinker1]

Can't believe so many Ali haters on here!
Anyway if you know your history you'll know that before the Liston fight Ali was a heavy underdog and Liston was considered a monster no one could beat. Everyone was terrified of him until Ali schooled him.

The Ali who fought Williams was much better than the Ali who beat Liston and the Ali of Mark II. Ali Mark II was also great but that is a part of his genius that he was able to adapt as his body changed. Against Foreman no one gave him a chance either and he whupped Foreman too...

If being fat and heavy is the only criterion which some of you seem to think then Butterbean should be the greatest HW of all time!

Even Tyson admits that Ali is the greatest of all times. He is just one of many.

[Elroy1]

Why would i do that? You seem to believe that your ridiculous rules are now the standard.

You believe bigger is better. You've even said fat is better. You have even said Mormeck from the Wlad fight is better than young Foreman.

Why should I give such ******ed notions the time of my day?

Anyway, George Foreman said Cleveland Williams was the hardest puncher he ever met (in sparring mind you). I think I'll take Foreman's word over an obsessed Ali hater who tries to spin everything to work your little agenda.

Really? Foreman said Williams was the hardest puncher did he even though it was only sparring.

Even though he declared elsewhere that it was an "actual" hard puncher named Ron Lyle? Seems a bit of a conundrum.

Even though he fought Tommy Morrison and Shannon Briggs who are obviously harder punchers than either!

So let's be clear here, your saying THIS Cleveland Williams...

http://resources0.news.com.au/images...853583-jpg.jpg

was a harder puncher than THIS Tommy Morrison...

http://www.thesweetscience.com/image...orrison7.0.jpg

Or THIS Shannon Briggs?

http://www.prlog.org/10871225-shannon-briggs.jpg

Have another drink man.

[Elroy1]

Can't believe so many Ali haters on here!
Anyway if you know your history you'll know that before the Liston fight Ali was a heavy underdog and Liston was considered a monster no one could beat. Everyone was terrified of him until Ali schooled him.

The Ali who fought Williams was much better than the Ali who beat Liston and the Ali of Mark II. Ali Mark II was also great but that is a part of his genius that he was able to adapt as his body changed. Against Foreman no one gave him a chance either and he whupped Foreman too...

If being fat and heavy is the only criterion which some of you seem to think then Butterbean should be the greatest HW of all time!

Even Tyson admits that Ali is the greatest of all times. He is just one of many.

Tyson calls Ali the greatest out of respect, of course. He has no illusions that he would not have been able to knock Ali out within a few rounds.

If you want to know what would happen if Tyson ever met Ali in the ring, see Mike Tyson vs Alfonso Ratliff.

Nobody said being fat and heavy is the only criterion for being a great HW boxer, don't let Laced Up's Chinese whispers run away with the truth. Butterbean is both a proof of how being heavy can compensate for quality somewhat, and also an example of how records can be manufactured by fighting bummy opposition, just like Sonny Liston. Liston's record is also manufactured by fighting bummy opponents. When you adjust records for both weight AND quality, it becomes clear that guys like both Butterbean and Liston are not toplist material fighters.

I'm not knocking Ali II on this thread at all so I'll leave that. You claimed the Ali who beat Williams was better than the one who "beat" Liston. Commonsense would agree with you there. He was bigger and more experienced. Then again, Williams was a much ****ter opponent than even Liston to judge by and I would not claim Ali to be the greatest from that performance against that opponent. And I would also claim that Ali NEVER CONVINCINGLY BEAT LISTON AT ALL!

Tua savagely knocked out Michael Moorer and John Ruiz within 30sec. Both much better opponents than Williams and both levelled in more spectacular and decisive fashion than Williams was. But we don't claim Tua was the greatest do we?

Yes Ali was an underdog but MANY ppl favoured Ali to win, to say that nobody gave him a chance is simply not true!

[sleazyfellow]

My god, someone likes to flame the **** out of a thread huh?

Cleveland was past his best but still a good puncher, ali was just on point that night and knew of the shot to the gut and if you notice he does hit him to the body which ali hardly did in any fight. I say the best version of ali was the first liston fight. Too fast