Cuauhtemoc1520's take on this weekend 7/12/2014

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

I don't think he's an alt. I'm pretty familiar with the writing styles and personalities of my fellow Cubans. (I know at least one Cuban alt. lol) I think BoxPrep is new to NSB. He seems cool, just a little hardheaded. But aren't we all sometimes?

This was the biggest fight for a Cuban professional in a very long time, bigger than anything Casamayor ever saw. You'd probably have to go all the way back to 1974, when Napoles fought Monzon. This fight meant more to Cuban boxing fans than to Mexicans. I understand the disappointment. But, hey, it is what it is. And for the first time in a very long time, Cubans are making a real impact in the pros. It's only a matter of time before we launch our own star. Lara ain't it. I never thought he was. I had hopes for Yuri, but we see how that's turning out. Although...I heard a rumor today that the Gamboa camp is putting out some big news soon. I have no idea what it could be.

Ok so let me ask you an honest question. Do you think Canelo can be a great fighter?

Now, I want you to take some things in consideration (and I'm not making a case for him because I have my own opinion) his age, his experience, and who he has fought.

[BoxPrep]

This is an absurd statement. Have you seen Paulie Malignaggi, Al Bernstein, Robert Garcia, Andre Berto, many of the TMT fighters, and others I can't remember right say the same exact thing I said about the fight.

I think the fight could have gone either way, 115-113 was the right score, but for WHO is subject to interpretation. Now you want to say that Lara or Canelo CLEARLY won, or that it was a robbery, I think it is you that is biased.

You had one fighter who moved for 12 rounds, pot shotted his opponent landing minimum shots and the other who chased, didn't land much to the head of his opponent but was the aggressor.

So who do you give that too? My point is, it's hard to decide.

This is where we disagree... and I'm not even going to address the opinions of those because Berto isn't a boxer.... nor are those TMT guys (sidenote: if you hadn't noticed, they all were at one point or another, Mayweather's sparring partners in the past).

Cuban Guy posted a great video on Harold Ledermen's criteria for scoring fights in another thread, in all of the categories listed (Clean Punching, Effective Aggression, Ring Generalship, Defense), not one of them did Canelo prove he was better, or even on the same level as Lara. There's this mythical phrase going around about Canelo last Saturday and how he was "pressing the action", how?

Angulo was pressing the action against Lara. The guy was extremely busy and he paid the price for it. No way did Canelo try to open up and take two or three to land one and make it a brawl and make Lara uncomfortable. Canelo got outboxed, plain and simple. It wasn't a draw and a 115-113 card is stretching it. Whenever the fight is posted or replayed, watch it again. I guarantee you it won't look as close as you initially thought.

[BoxPrep]

We went into this very deeply last night, into the wee hours. He had the fight "116-112 or 117-111" for Lara. I had it 115-113 for Landy. How far can you get with someone who thought the fight was that wide? If I scored it that way, I'd call it a robbery, too. lol But my score was "absurd." lmao

Rewatch the fight and get back to me... this is coming from the guy who didn't even score the rounds and just said "well, it was close, so 115-113 Lara I guess."

You even said you probably had Lara up 4-0, which means you had him losing five of the next eight rounds. So yeah, absurd.

[BoxPrep]

Cuauh, who did you tab to win the Love-Rosado fight last year? Since you're talking about TMT opinions, I saw his in a post-fight.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

This is where we disagree... and I'm not even going to address the opinions of those because Berto isn't a boxer.... nor are those TMT guys (sidenote: if you hadn't noticed, they all were at one point or another, Mayweather's sparring partners in the past).

Cuban Guy posted a great video on Harold Ledermen's criteria for scoring fights in another thread, in all of the categories listed (Clean Punching, Effective Aggression, Ring Generalship, Defense), not one of them did Canelo prove he was better, or even on the same level as Lara. There's this mythical phrase going around about Canelo last Saturday and how he was "pressing the action", how?

Angulo was pressing the action against Lara. The guy was extremely busy and he paid the price for it. No way did Canelo try to open up and take two or three to land one and make it a brawl and make Lara uncomfortable. Canelo got outboxed, plain and simple. It wasn't a draw and a 115-113 card is stretching it. Whenever the fight is posted or replayed, watch it again. I guarantee you it won't look as close as you initially thought.

I have watched it 3 times now and let me address how absolutely absurd your logic is, and don't get offended because I'm not trying to be a di.ck.

First off, Berto and anyone else can have an opinion if you can. Joe Goosen, another one who thought Canelo won, who knows more about boxing than you and I have forgotten.

Second, judging is SUBJECTIVE. This isn't a mathematical equation as you are making it out to be. There are rules and guidelines as to how you should judge a fight, but different people hold some over others.

For example, if a boxer lands 15 jabs in a round, then in that same round, the other fighter lands one hard shot that seems to stun that fighter, who do you give the round to?

Canelo isn't going to take shots needlessly like Angulo, because Canelo knows he can box with Lara. Before you say Lara clearly out boxed him, Lara clearly defended well against Canelo, but he didn't land enough, nor was he aggressive enough in his counter punching to win that fight.

I have no issue with you having scored it for Lara, but to say it was a robbery, does you a disservice and takes away all credibility from you. I been in this game for a long time, I have seen many robberies, and this was not one of them.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Cuauh, who did you tab to win the Love-Rosado fight last year? Since you're talking about TMT opinions, I saw his in a post-fight.

I don't remember that fight as well as this one because obviously it was a while ago. I believe I had Rosado winning that fight, because of his aggression but wasn't really upset that Love got the win.

Again, it's a subjective opinion of what style you like more. Some judges like aggression, some like movement and defense.

I just think in the end, NEITHER Lara nor Canelo did enough to clearly win this fight. 115-113 was the right score either way.

Oh also, you cannot just dismiss body shots, in the pro's they count them. I'm licensed in Oklahoma, NY, NJ and Florida. Believe me, body shots count in the pro game.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Rewatch the fight and get back to me... this is coming from the guy who didn't even score the rounds and just said "well, it was close, so 115-113 Lara I guess."

You even said you probably had Lara up 4-0, which means you had him losing five of the next eight rounds. So yeah, absurd.

No, what I said was this:

I didn't write it down. I only remember my final score and a general recollection of the fight. I thought Lara won the first few rounds, either 3-1 or 4-0. Canelo started to pick it up in the middle. After he opened that gash over Lara's eye, Landy become more cautious and Alvarez won another one or two. Lara got back in the game after the bleeding was stemmed and he won another couple of rounds. I think I had Canelo winning the final round. It certainly seemed his team thought he was down and sent him out breathing fire. For Lara's part, he seemed to think he was winning and merely sought to avoid getting caught with something big.

And this:

I remember 3-1 or 4-0. Let's say 3-1. You say the 8th and 9th were clear Canelo rounds, so I have to believe I'd agree. The twelfth I believe I had for Canelo. That's four rounds. I must've given one of the swing rounds to Alvarez.

That brings up yet another thing, I thought there were some close rounds that really could've altered the score, depending on whom you sided with. I mean, I'm only one round away from a draw, and two rounds from a Canelo win. This is why I think it's perfectly conceivable that one could legitimately have it for Alvarez by the same score I gave Lara.

And this:

Bro, that punch was probably the best punch of the fight. It was certainly the one that caused the most damage. It was a clean uppercut. Unless you had Lara dominant in the remainder of that round, Alvarez took it. That must've been my fifth Alvarez round. lol

I think the reasoning for my scoring is adequately explained in those posts. What more do you want from me? lol

[champion4ever]

In short, Lara didn't lose. He was just robbed of the fight fair and square that's all.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Ok so let me ask you an honest question. Do you think Canelo can be a great fighter?

Now, I want you to take some things in consideration (and I'm not making a case for him because I have my own opinion) his age, his experience, and who he has fought.

Jury's out. Greatness is very difficult to predict. We've all seen guys that looked much better than Canelo turn out to be nobodies. But we've all seen guys that didn't show tremendous early promise became legendary.

I consider Alvarez fairly limited. His skills are good and his hand-speed is sneaky, but he's not very quick and his power, while very good, isn't exceptional. But what I think makes this kid potentially special, not just as a boxer, but as a competitor, is his winning attitude. This kid appears to have "it." There's a reason why people are taken in with Saul, and it's not just his looks. The kid's a winner. People sense that and crowd around guys like that.

Like I said, the jury's still out, but you can't take your eye of him.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Jury's out. Greatness is very difficult to predict. We've all seen guys that looked much better than Canelo turn out to be nobodies. But we've all seen guys that didn't show tremendous early promise became legendary.

I consider Alvarez fairly limited. His skills are good and his hand-speed is sneaky, but he's not very quick and his power, while very good, isn't exceptional. But what I think makes this kid potentially special, not just as a boxer, but as a competitor, is his winning attitude. This kid appears to have "it." There's a reason why people are taken in with Saul, and it's not just his looks. The kid's a winner. People sense that and crowd around guys like that.

Like I said, the jury's still out, but you can't take your eye of him.

Man, you really nailed it. The "it" factor I can see from a mile away and this kid has it.

Also, he does something that I think is very underrated and very difficult for boxers to do.

He sets amazing traps, he will do something over and over, then switch it and it's like his opponents walk into shots, rather than him seeking them out. I think that's why he is more of a counter puncher by trade, because he has a knack of capitalizing on your mistakes.

That upper cut vs Lara and 2 or 3 vs Trout were things of beauty where he changed the punch to land it.

I agree on everything else you said though.