Ward in beating E-Rod as a LHW has now twice beaten the lineal LHW champ.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Yes Dariusz was lineal champ after beating Hill, then Gonzales beat him but before that Roy beat Gonzales and so after losing to Roy he became lineal champ and then lost that to Zsolt.

ok, i see,, thanks for clearing that up,,,, i was in the army at the time, so i didnt get to watch as much as i liked,, plus that was the era of tito, oscar, shane, vargas, prince, MAB, morales, lennox, and evander,,, I really wasnt trying to keep up with gonzalez and zsolt back then,,,
Thanks for setting me straight

[Citizen Koba]

I am just going by title lineage as I understand them and trying to dissect it in an objective manner even if the way boxing works can create some confusing issues.

So its not that a new lineage can't be created but in the rare case a fighter came back after a long time retiring as lineal champion there is no fair and just way I can see his lineal championship status being denied as he was champion before the newer lineage was created but I can see the newer crowned lineal champions status being denied on the grounds that the previous champion has a claim which can't be disputed because was established long before the newer champion was more or less crowned as lineal champion only by default so now since the oldest lineage can be re-established and all claims of lineage after the original claim are now no longer legitimate since the proven man of the divisions status is restored simply because he is an active fighter in his division again.

It's all kinda angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff, but I think the Ring version sorta works (not that I have much respect for their credibility) an 18 month hiatus - either from the sport (as in retirement) or from the division - oughta entitle the beginning of a new lineage if the #1 and #2 fight. It's a little arbitrary, but otherwise, as has been pointed out, the establishment of any new lineage would necessarily have to wait until the last lineal titlist was beyond any hope of ring return. Especially in the lower weight classes (where top young fighters frequently move up in weight as they age), considering a fighter lineal champion until past retirement would result in absurdity - some cut-off needs to be made.

That said, I think it's a reasonable argument that a lineal champion returning to his career or weight division without having lost that title in the ring supersedes a lineage established later (the earlier lineage should take priority) - perhaps though it could be considered that the newer lineage would be accepted if it was of greater duration or number of defenses than the old (ie the longer lineage should take priority).

I think this could be one for the TBRB to mull over (as the legitimate successor to the Ring rankings IMO) as I'm sure it'll occur again sooner or later (obvs in this Ward / La Bomba / Dawson case it is not relevant as the fights were contracted and sanctioned at 168). At the end of the day the title is pretty meaningless, and confers status only in the eyes of the boxing community, but nonetheless could end up having real world consequences in terms of earning power.

Hmm..in fact I think I'll have a look at the TBRBs position on this and see if they already have it covered...

[ShoulderRoll]

So is this a thread about andre ward or roy jones?

It's about Muhammad Ali.

[I Love Jesus!]

Zolt had the rightful claim to the lineage, im surprised people didnt know this before

He was the lineal champ but if it was a real title in a 1 belt system he would have been stripped for all the unranked bums he defended against

[BafanaBafana]

He was the lineal champ but if it was a real title in a 1 belt system he would have been stripped for all the unranked bums he defended against

Erdei was coming out of retirement for the Grachev fight (2013) and hadn't fought at Light heavyweight since January 2009. It's a bit like saying Camacho (when he beat Leonard) became the linear middleweight champion because Leonard hadn't lost at middleweight (until then) and thus carried his lineage all the way into the fight... Calling E. Rodriguez the Linear Light Heavyweight champion is embarrassing...

Also, I don't know if anyone watched the fight but Erdei clearly outboxed and won that fight but got blatantly robbed.

[Spray_resistant]

Erdei was coming out of retirement for the Grachev fight (2013) and hadn't fought at Light heavyweight since January 2009. It's a bit like saying Camacho (when he beat Leonard) became the linear middleweight champion because Leonard hadn't lost at middleweight (until then) and thus carried his lineage all the way into the fight... Calling E. Rodriguez the Linear Light Heavyweight champion is embarrassing...

Also, I don't know if anyone watched the fight but Erdei clearly outboxed and won that fight but got blatantly robbed.

I will have to fact check lineage but I suppose it is, just because it makes a mess doesn't mean it technically would be incorrect dismissing it because it causes people to have to think things through is no more than blatant laziness.

[IronDanHamza]

retire to me means never fight again, Zsolt didn't do that so based on objective reason and fight results I will recognize Ward as the legitimate LHW champion until a man over 168lbs beats him or he retires/fights over 175 never to return to the weight class again.

Let's pretend Rodriguez was the Lineal Champion at 175 (He wasn't) how can Ward be the legitimate Champion at 175 when the fight was at 168?

[Adamjr91]

Ward last year beat up, out boxed, and made Dawson quit who was the Ring and recognized LHW champion until Stevenson iced him.

Sure it wasn't at LHW but still impressive and by way of actual victories in the ring not paper vacant titles handed out for fun.

Ward just beat E-rod, (who fought as a LHW Saturday) who beat Grachev, who beat Zsolt, who beat Gonzales, who beat Darusiz, who beat Virgil Hill to unify 3 belts while Roy Jones was dicking around beating old Mike McCullum at a weight he didn't belong at for a vacant interim title.

I know people maybe don't know or like to pretend that Roy was the LHW champion because of his awesome physical talents but he really wasn't, his belts were mostly interim or vacant titles won and he had no lineage at all.

I like to pretend too but don't be mad at me for telling the truth be mad at Roy for not going to the champ's home and taking his belts from him and as a result now Ward is the real LHW champion in my eyes in addition to being the real SMW champion.

This right here is some misleading drivel.

[IronDanHamza]

I know the circumstances.

Ever source I have seen has Ali as the Lineal HW champion going into their fight at MSG.

There was confusion at the time just like there is now so don't worry

The HW tornuament crowned the new "Champion" which was Joe Frazier. He was the Heavyweight Champion of the world.

Although, many still considered Ali the "Real" champion because he hadn't been beaten. But Ali actually didn't hold any titles at that time.

So to answer the question, it was Frazier. But people still debate it to this day.

[Spray_resistant]

Let's pretend Rodriguez was the Lineal Champion at 175 (He wasn't) how can Ward be the legitimate Champion at 175 when the fight was at 168?

I already explained, E-rod was over weight and Ward can weigh whatever he wants as long as he wasn't over 175.

I have no agenda really, it was just an idea, I then did some objective digging and this is what I concluded.

Don't blame me, blame the ABC organizations and E-rod for being a lazy cunt.