Ward in beating E-Rod as a LHW has now twice beaten the lineal LHW champ.

[Larry the boss]

Holmes didnt win the lineal title from Ali, because Ali didnt have it. He started a new one by beating him

honestly that makes no sense if he retired and came back,but what you said was a fact

I thought Ali was Lineal going into the first Frazier bout?

Am I wrong?

he retired and therefore let the linage go but hell he retired before he fought holmes to and that made a new lineage so imma do something most people on here dont do and be honest and say i am lost

[Sweet Pea 50]

Ali retired and vacated the title, and then Frazier became the champ when he beat Ellis.

I know the circumstances.

Ever source I have seen has Ali as the Lineal HW champion going into their fight at MSG.

[Danny Gunz]

So is this a thread about andre ward or roy jones?

[Spray_resistant]

Lol i dont know what to tell you. He vacated the 175 title when he retired. Its simply revisionist history that he came back 11 months later, and should have somehow been the champ again. What if he never actually came back, or came back 15 years later? He retired and vacated the title, its pretty simple.

Its more of a distinction than an actual physically real title he can lose on paper like some fighters get stripped of their ABC straps for whatever reason and yes the distinction would be gone when he is not a professional fighter competing but once back it has to be reinstated I would think because a clear championship lineage can be traced to him that cannot honestly be denied as the man in the division who beat the man who beat the man in the division.

[Russian Crushin]

I know the circumstances.

Ever source I have seen has Ali as the Lineal HW champion going into their fight at MSG.

Those sources are wrong. Frazier was the champ when he fought Ali

[Sweet Pea 50]

Those sources are wrong. Frazier was the champ when he fought Ali

I'm seeing Frazier as WBC/WBA and Ali as the Lineal.

[Russian Crushin]

Its more of a distinction than an actual physically real title he can lose on paper like some fighters get stripped of their ABC straps for whatever reason and yes the distinction would be gone when he is not a professional fighter competing but once back it has to be reinstated I would think because a clear championship lineage can be traced to him that cannot honestly be denied as the man in the division who beat the man who beat the man in the division.

What if he came back 15 years later, he should be reinstated as champ? So basically you cant have a new lineage until the old lineal champ dies

He retired and vacated his title, i dont whats so hard to understand about that. He could have just not fought for 11 months but he specifically said he retired from boxing

[No.]

No, he wasnt, he retired, vacating the title right before the fight. But when he came back, they started a new lineage (for holmes) since they were clear #1 and #2 at HW

The only way to "vacate" a lineal title is to never fight again in the division which your lineage is held. If you're still active in a division and your lineage hasn't changed hands. You're still the lineal champ. Which is why the year before Ali-Holmes, #1 rated Larry Holmes & #2 rated Earnie Shavers was NOT for the lineal/ring title. Because Ali was still the lineal/RING champ. Ali was rated nowhere in the division at the time of the Holmes fight, so how could he have been the clear #1 or #2? The lineal/RING title was on the line in that fight because it was still in Ali's possession, being that he was active, and lineage had never been taken from him.

Holmes didnt win the lineal title from Ali, because Ali didnt have it. He started a new one by beating him

How do you win lineage by beating a previously unranked fighter?

Based on your theory about how lineage is passed on and "vacated" shouldn't Larry Holmes have already been lineal champ for beating #2 rated Earnie Shavers in '79 since Ali was retired at the time? So why wasn't he crowned lineal/RING champ?

I thought Ali was Lineal going into the first Frazier bout?

Am I wrong?

No. You're absolutely right. Which is why Russian didn't offer a rebuttal when i challenged him on it.

[Russian Crushin]

I'm seeing Frazier as WBC/WBA and Ali as the Lineal.

Those were the only 2 titles in existence at the time, and they were unified when Frazier fought Ellis creating an undisputed HW champ. Ali was retired at that time, and thought he would never fight again. Its all revisionist bull**** that says otherwise. Either that or complete ignorance

[KickAzz]

Ward gets no credit for beating a weight drained Dawson.

Also triangle theories don't work. Ward has to beat Virgil hill in the ring to get credit for beating him.