Ward in beating E-Rod as a LHW has now twice beaten the lineal LHW champ.

[Spray_resistant]

What if he came back 15 years later, he should be reinstated as champ? So basically you cant have a new lineage until the old lineal champ dies

He retired and vacated his title, i dont whats so hard to understand about that. He could have just not fought for 11 months but he specifically said he retired from boxing

Technically the way I understand it yes and I suppose new lineages are established all of the time when a lineal champ retires or moves out of a division but I can't recall a scenario where this has happened after 10 or 15 years.

If it did who has the authority to deny the retired lineal champion his lineal status he won in the ring and was never beaten for? I think the current lineal champion after the retired champion would lose his status because we can trace an older championship lineage that was established before him and he would then just be the champion of which ever governing organization(s) regard him as champion since there is no lineal championship sanctioning body.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Yes he did but unfortunately not when it meant winning would have made him lineal champion which is the only thing I am talking about in this thread.

ok,, i always thought gonzalez beat michlewski, and then the next year, roy beat gonzalez to gain all the belts,,, I never realized or had forgotten that zsoltd had beaten him to it,,, Is that correct??

[Spray_resistant]

Ward gets no credit for beating a weight drained Dawson.

Also triangle theories don't work. Ward has to beat Virgil hill in the ring to get credit for beating him.

That is not at all what I am saying my OP explains it clearly enough.

[Russian Crushin]

The only way to "vacate" a lineal title is to never fight again in the division which your lineage is held. If you're still active in a division and your lineage hasn't changed hands. You're still the lineal champ. Which is why the year before Ali-Holmes, #1 rated Larry Holmes & #2 rated Earnie Shavers was NOT for the lineal/ring title. Because Ali was still the lineal/RING champ. Ali was rated nowhere in the division at the time of the Holmes fight, so how could he have been the clear #1 or #2? The lineal/RING title was on the line in that fight because it was still in Ali's possession, being that he was active, and lineage had never been taken from him.

And what if a fighter retires, then comes back and fights 15 years later in that same division? Does he became the real champ? That makes no sense.

Ali didnt have the lineal title when he fought holmes, because he was trying to win the HW title for the 4th. How was Ali active in the division when he announced his retirement?

How do you win lineage by beating a previously unranked fighter?

Based on your theory about how lineage is passed on and "vacated" shouldn't Larry Holmes have already been lineal champ for beating #2 rated Earnie Shavers in '79 since Ali was retired at the time? So why wasn't he crowned lineal/RING champ?

"Unranked" doesnt mean people didnt view Ali as the best. He beat Shavers and Ken Norton, so why would they be ranked above him?

No. You're absolutely right. Which is why Russian didn't offer a rebuttal when i challenged him on it.

I didnt? Ali was not the champ coming into the Frazier fight. Im sorry but people love to rewrite history because it plays better that way. Frazier was declared the HW champ for beating Ellis and unifying the titles. Just because Ali soon came back after that didnt change that fact, why are people trying to rewrite history?

[Sweet Pea 50]

I'm going on what The Ring itself has stated:

The Ring began awarding world championship belts in 1922. The first Ring world title belt was awarded to heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey and the second was awarded to flyweight champion Pancho Villa. The Ring stopped giving belts to world champions in the 1990s but began again in 2002.[1]

The Ring introduced a championship policy in 2002. A vacant title is awarded only to the winner of a fight between The Ring 's #1 contender and its #2 or #3 contender; The Ring 's Top-10 contender rankings, while credible, are not systematic.

A controversy described by Cliff Rold of BoxingScene is the light-heavyweight title, considered vacant from the time Michael Spinks went up to heavyweight in 1985 until 1996. While Rold considers Virgil Hill's defeat of Henry Maske (who were the two highest rated boxers) as the beginning of the new lineage, as does Cyber Boxing Zone and the International Boxing Research Organization,[2] Ring Magazine controversially trace the title through Roy Jones after awarding Jones their championship belt upon its return in 2001.[3] In 2002, Ring Magazine editor Nigel Collins acknowledged that if their championship policy was in place in 1997, Dariusz Michalczewski, who defeated Hill, "probably would have been The Ring Champion".[4]

In 2002, The Ring created a lineal championship system that is "intended to reward fighters who, by satisfying rigid criteria, can justify a claim as the true and only world champion in a given weight class".[5] There were then three ways that a boxer can win The Ring's title:
Defeat the reigning champion.
Win a box-off between The Ring's number-one and number-two rated contenders.
If the Nos. 1 and 2 contenders choose not to fight one another and either of them fights No. 3, No. 4 or No. 5, the winner may be awarded THE RING belt.

In 2007, The Ring was acquired by the owners of fight promoter Golden Boy Promotions,[6] which has publicized The Ring's world championship when this is at stake in fights it promotes (such as Joe Calzaghe vs. Roy Jones, Jr. in 2008).[7]

In May 2012, citing the number of vacancies in various weight classes as primary motivation, The Ring unveiled a new championship policy. There are now also seven ways that a boxer can lose The Ring's title:[8]
The champion loses a fight in the weight class in which he is champion.
The champion moves to another weight class.
The champion does not schedule a fight in any weight class for 18 months.
The champion does not schedule a fight at his championship weight for 18 months (even if he fights at another weight).
The champion does not schedule a fight with a Top-5 contender from any weight class for two years.
The champion retires.

They also state Ali's reign as Lineal champion from February 25, 1964 - March 8, 1971, beginning with his victory over Liston, and ending with his defeat to Frazier.

So at the time, according to their rules stipulated, Ali was the Lineal champion.

[Spray_resistant]

ok,, i always thought gonzalez beat michlewski, and then the next year, roy beat gonzalez to gain all the belts,,, I never realized or had forgotten that zsoltd had beaten him to it,,, Is that correct??

Yes Dariusz was lineal champ after beating Hill, then Gonzales beat him but before that Roy beat Gonzales and so after losing to Roy he became lineal champ and then lost that to Zsolt.

[Russian Crushin]

Technically the way I understand it yes and I suppose new lineages are established all of the time when a lineal champ retires or moves out of a division but I can't recall a scenario where this has happened after 10 or 15 years.

But what if that happened. Basically you're saying a new lineage cannot start until the old holder dies, because otherwise he can just come back any time and be the "champ"

If it did who has the authority to deny the retired lineal champion his lineal status he won in the ring and was never beaten for? I think the current lineal champion after the retired champion would lose his status because we can trace an older championship lineage that was established before him and he would then just be the champion of which ever governing organization(s) regard him as champion since there is no lineal championship sanctioning body.

Lineage ends with leaving a division or retirement. You're over thinking this wayyyy too much. He retired and vacated the title.

[Russian Crushin]

Here this will clear it up for ya'll

http://linealchamps.com/page11.html

[Sweet Pea 50]

Here this will clear it up for ya'll

http://linealchamps.com/page11.html

Thanks for the read.

I guess I was mistaken.

[Spray_resistant]

But what if that happened. Basically you're saying a new lineage cannot start until the old holder dies, because otherwise he can just come back any time and be the "champ"

Lineage ends with leaving a division or retirement. You're over thinking this wayyyy too much. He retired and vacated the title.

I am just going by title lineage as I understand them and trying to dissect it in an objective manner even if the way boxing works can create some confusing issues.

So its not that a new lineage can't be created but in the rare case a fighter came back after a long time retiring as lineal champion there is no fair and just way I can see his lineal championship status being denied as he was champion before the newer lineage was created but I can see the newer crowned lineal champions status being denied on the grounds that the previous champion has a claim which can't be disputed because was established long before the newer champion was more or less crowned as lineal champion only by default so now since the oldest lineage can be re-established and all claims of lineage after the original claim are now no longer legitimate since the proven man of the divisions status is restored simply because he is an active fighter in his division again.