Top 10 Heavyweights of all times.

[Barn]

Both myself and Simurgh were being facetious.

Okay, sorry.

Good to throw it out there anyway as some people do use it as a legitimate argument.

[Barn]

As in it was a bold statement to make since a lot of people and mags have Johnson ranked quite highly in the top 10.

I usually take significance into consideration. Like Clay - Liston. Because the magnitude of the victory and overcoming the odds elevate the fighter in my opinion. The reason why I don't hold Wlad in particularly high regard (yet, this may very well change when he retires), is because he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary. Beating someone he wasn't supposed to beat, or being in a fight of the year/decade/century. I feel sorry for him in a way, because he needs a true rival that matches him size for size and talent for talent. Like Lennox Lewis. Would he stand up to be counted against Lennox? Lennox takes it for me.

When did Johnson overcome the odds in the ring, when did he do anything out of the ordinary? What's more: Johnson was never in a FOTY in terms of excitement in fact his bouts are more boring than watching paint dry. I also don't think being exciting is important, though.

If you're going to refer to Johnson's social impacts or how he was a "pioneer" then that has literally nothing to do with the "greatness" I have been discussing in the last few posts.

[Simurgh]

As in it was a bold statement to make since a lot of people and mags have Johnson ranked quite highly in the top 10.

I usually take significance into consideration. Like Clay - Liston. Because the magnitude of the victory and overcoming the odds elevate the fighter in my opinion. The reason why I don't hold Wlad in particularly high regard (yet, this may very well change when he retires), is because he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary. Beating someone he wasn't supposed to beat, or being in a fight of the year/decade/century. I feel sorry for him in a way, because he needs a true rival that matches him size for size and talent for talent. Like Lennox Lewis. Would he stand up to be counted against Lennox? Lennox takes it for me.

has Lennox beat anyone he wasn't suppose to beat (take into account the point in careers when Lennox beat them)?

What do you take for Lennox's best win?

[LacedUp]

When did Johnson overcome the odds in the ring, when did he do anything out of the ordinary? What's more: Johnson was never in a FOTY in terms of excitement in fact his bouts are more boring than watching paint dry. I also don't think being exciting is important, though.

If you're going to refer to Johnson's social impacts or how he was a "pioneer" then that has literally nothing to do with the "greatness" I have been discussing in the last few posts.

I believe that has something to do with greatness. As far as his fights go, they are equally interesting to Wlad's fights. However, he beat the man who beat the man. When Jeffries came back and fought him, it was huge. Whether you take this into consideration or not, for their time Johnsons level of opponent was similar to Wlads levels. But Johnson fought more than a hundred times, beat the man, first black HW champion and fought Jeffries in a fight that forever changed boxing. I hold my feet firm on the ground on this one.

has Lennox beat anyone he wasn't suppose to beat (take into account the point in careers when Lennox beat them)?

What do you take for Lennox's best win?

I thought someone would probably mention this. And it's probably the only case where it doesn't apply. However, the difference in this case is that Lennox fought world class opponents that are ATGs. He even beat Vitali who was going to dominate the HW scene for the next ten years.

[Simurgh]

I thought someone would probably mention this. And it's probably the only case where it doesn't apply. However, the difference in this case is that Lennox fought world class opponents that are ATGs. He even beat Vitali who was going to dominate the HW scene for the next ten years.

I think Vitali is his biggest win by far. And I really didn't get an impression Lennox was a better fighter overall in that fight. My assessment of that fight is that Lennox took Vitali on experience and muscles, although Vitali looked better boxing (nevertheless I wouldn't like to go too far there - we all know what might happen).

Now the second best win, is it Holyfiled? Bowe beat him much more impressively IMO, 7 year prior to that. Holyfiled after that lost to Byrd, Ruiz, Toney. Not that impressive.

So where are those ATGs Lennox beat and at what stage of their careers they were. Have any of those ATG beat anyone half good fighter after Lennox beat them... How many of them came unbeaten/prime against Lennox?
It's not like Lennox never fought bums in his prime. Have you ever heard about Lionel Butler or Justin Fortune?

Don't get me wrong. Lennox is a phenomenal fighter, one of the kind. Top5 in my book, but so is Wlad.

[Barn]

I believe that has something to do with greatness. As far as his fights go, they are equally interesting to Wlad's fights. However, he beat the man who beat the man. When Jeffries came back and fought him, it was huge. Whether you take this into consideration or not, for their time Johnsons level of opponent was similar to Wlads levels. But Johnson fought more than a hundred times, beat the man, first black HW champion and fought Jeffries in a fight that forever changed boxing. I hold my feet firm on the ground on this one.

I feel that you are using arguments that are irrelevant. First black HW champion means nothing. Fighting 100 times means nothing. Fighting in a bout that forever changed boxing, means nothing.

Also the only reason it was huge is because deluded white men thought a retired Jeffries could some how shift 80 odd lbs and beat a prime Johnson in a fight even Jeffries thought was a no-hoper.

Also. Jeffries wasn't "the man" IMO. Jeffries picked Jack Root and Marvin Hart to fight for the title after he retired as he felt they were the best. Hart won and thus became "the man". Then Burns beat Hart to become the next "man" who Johnson then beat. If you were always referring to Burns then I apologize.

[LacedUp]

I think Vitali is his biggest win by far. And I really didn't get an impression Lennox was a better fighter overall in that fight. My assessment of that fight is that Lennox took Vitali on experience and muscles, although Vitali looked better boxing (nevertheless I wouldn't like to go too far there - we all know what might happen).

Now the second best win, is it Holyfiled? Bowe beat him much more impressively IMO, 7 year prior to that. Holyfiled after that lost to Byrd, Ruiz, Toney. Not that impressive.

So where are those ATGs Lennox beat and at what stage of their careers they were. Have any of those ATG beat anyone half good fighter after Lennox beat them... How many of them came unbeaten/prime against Lennox?
It's not like Lennox never fought bums in his prime. Have you ever heard about Lionel Butler or Justin Fortune?

Don't get me wrong. Lennox is a phenomenal fighter, one of the kind. Top5 in my book, but so is Wlad.

Lennox best win is not Vitali. He was known as a quitter at the time, and just a farewell fight. He came in for a real surprise. His best wins are Holyfield, Tyson, Bruno & Ruddock. After that he beat good names in Golota, Vitali, Botha, Tua, Briggs, Rahman, Morrison, Mercer.

There were a few unbeaten fighters in there, but I don't always go with the notion that taking someone's 0 means all that much. For example, Wlad will take Pianetas 0. It doesn't make it a better fight. Bruno, Briggs, Mercer, Golota, Vitali, Rahman, Morrison and the likes were all in their prime.

As said, I don't take any active fighters into consideration and it may change with regards to Wlad, but I don't feel like his resume stacks up to lewis'.

[LacedUp]

I feel that you are using arguments that are irrelevant. First black HW champion means nothing. Fighting 100 times means nothing. Fighting in a bout that forever changed boxing, means nothing.

Also the only reason it was huge is because deluded white men thought a retired Jeffries could some how shift 80 odd lbs and beat a prime Johnson in a fight even Jeffries thought was a no-hoper.

Also. Jeffries wasn't "the man" IMO. Jeffries picked Jack Root and Marvin Hart to fight for the title after he retired as he felt they were the best. Hart won and thus became "the man". Then Burns beat Hart to become the next "man" who Johnson then beat. If you were always referring to Burns then I apologize.

Well, if greatness was defined by H2H across all eras, then my list would be entirely different. Because how can you compare someone like Patterson to Wladimir Klitschko? I think Jack Johnson did amazing things for boxing. And he reigned surpreme for 7-8 years.

And "the man" I was referring to was Burns, not Jeffries.

[Barn]

Well, if greatness was defined by H2H across all eras, then my list would be entirely different. Because how can you compare someone like Patterson to Wladimir Klitschko? I think Jack Johnson did amazing things for boxing. And he reigned surpreme for 7-8 years.

And "the man" I was referring to was Burns, not Jeffries.

I'm defining greatness as what they did in the ring.

I feel that bringing things up like how much impact they had outside the ring and whatnot is irrelevant and means nothing when measuring how great a fighter is as a boxer.

[Mike Haynes]

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Holmes
Johnson
Lewis
Tyson
Marciano
Liston
Frazier

How anyone can have Wlad's no skill always bear hugging KTFO'd ass in their top 10 ANYTHING is pure fan-dom. Vitaly is WAAAY better and he's honorable mention at best, mainly because his poor opposition.