Vitali's legacy

[Tommo1]

Laced Up you are missing my point, I am not having a dig at these boxers.

As you know I rate all 3 of them highly, and all 3 are definitely ATG deservedly.

The point is that Vitali is atleast as accomplished as these guys given he has avoided the stigma of there careers completely by simply destroying all of his opponents without struggle.

Dominance is greater than struggle as a rule!

All I'm saying is he's as deserved of ATG as any of these guys are! How could it be otherwise!

[Weltschmerz]

You gotta love the whole "he was up on the scorecards!" argument that seems to be employed almost exclusively by Vitali's ball washers. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for both Vitali and Wlad, but that argument (if you can even call it that) is utterly absurd.

It's like saying that Christopher Reeve was totally dominating that equestrian competition until the horse broke his fucking neck.

This thread is not about Vitali vs Lewis. Go troll somewhere else, 'super mod'

[LacedUp]

Laced Up you are missing my point, I am not having a dig at these boxers.

As you know I rate all 3 of them highly, and all 3 are definitely ATG deservedly.

The point is that Vitali is atleast as accomplished as these guys given he has avoided the stigma of there careers completely by simply destroying all of his opponents without struggle.

Dominance is greater than struggle as a rule!

All I'm saying is he's as deserved of ATG as any of these guys are! How could it be otherwise!

Actually, I don't. You just said Foreman does not have a single good win on his resume. This is despite him beating Frazier twice, Moorer, Cooney, Lyle, Norton etc. Vitali doesn't have one win on his resume that is equal to any of these wins! Maybe Sanders, but even that's a stretch as he wasn't even fully committed to the sport.

No, you are basing your opinion on Vitali supposed greatness. That he COULD have been a champion in any era, or he WOULD have beaten this and that fighter and he SHOULD have won against Lewis.

You see a pattern here? Vitali's career is a big time coulda, woulda, shoulda. We will never know about that. What we do know, is that the guys he beat were not very good and most don't have a single top 10 win on their resume. simple as that.

[Tommo1]

You don't read so good. I said Foreman had not a single "great" opponent on his resume.

Those opponents were good fighters, good wins. But weren't GREAT opponents. And what I'm getting at is Vitali is the same, good opponents, not great opponents. So why are we biased here?

[Tommo1]

No you're wrong. It is YOU who assumes that Foreman's opponents were worth more than Vitali's when in fact they are comparable!

In fact Vitali's opponents were better than Foreman's if you want to be picky about it!

[LacedUp]

You don't read so good. I said Foreman had not a single "great" opponent on his resume.

Those opponents were good fighters, good wins. But weren't GREAT opponents. And what I'm getting at is Vitali is the same, good opponents, not great opponents. So why are we biased here?

No you're wrong. It is YOU who assumes that Foreman's opponents were worth more than Vitali's when in fact they are comparable!

In fact Vitali's opponents were better than Foreman's if you want to be picky about it!

OK - so which one of Vitali's victims has a prime Ali or a prime Holyfield or anything of the likes on their resume? These are ATGs who got beat by the guys Foreman beat. That makes them GREAT opponents.

Just because you say they are 'good' as opposed to 'great' doesn't make it so.

[Tommo1]

Well yeah if I claimed my word was gospel then I'd be going against my own policy of not listening to heresay arguments, fair enough.

That's true about his opponents conquering greats but 2 things to be considered...

Frazier beating Ali is living proof to me of how Ali's "greatness" should be reduced to merely "good" imo. I personally see nothing "great" about him. But I admit that is my own bias.

Foreman beating Moorer is different though. Moorer was punching the living **** out of Foreman the whole fight it's a miracle he didn't drop and Foreman got lucky! Luck doesn't equal ATG imo.

And now to the second point... Vitali virtually beat Byrd. I know it is a loss and all that but he was undeniably whipping him. He could have gone out and won the fight without throwing another punch. Quitting was All Time Shameful no argument there but realistically he gave a hiding to a conquerer of several good boxers and Holyfield as well.

And he beat Sander's who KO'd Wladimir didn't he, and Puritty which is not so special but you get the drift!

All this is irrespective of the fact that most of Vitali's resume could knock most of Froeman's resume out! That MUST count for something!

You gotta remember, Vitali would not be ALLOWED to KO most of the opponents that Foreman did in his first career.

[LacedUp]

Well yeah if I claimed my word was gospel then I'd be going against my own policy of not listening to heresay arguments, fair enough.

That's true about his opponents conquering greats but 2 things to be considered...

Frazier beating Ali is living proof to me of how Ali's "greatness" should be reduced to merely "good" imo. I personally see nothing "great" about him. But I admit that is my own bias.

Foreman beating Moorer is different though. Moorer was punching the living **** out of Foreman the whole fight it's a miracle he didn't drop and Foreman got lucky! Luck doesn't equal ATG imo.

And now to the second point... Vitali virtually beat Byrd. I know it is a loss and all that but he was undeniably whipping him. He could have gone out and won the fight without throwing another punch. Quitting was All Time Shameful no argument there but realistically he gave a hiding to a conquerer of several good boxers and Holyfield as well.

And he beat Sander's who KO'd Wladimir didn't he, and Puritty which is not so special but you get the drift!

All this is irrespective of the fact that most of Vitali's resume could knock most of Froeman's resume out! That MUST count for something!

You gotta remember, Vitali would not be ALLOWED to KO most of the opponents that Foreman did in his first career.

I can't do anything about your opinion about Ali, but I can't say I agree at all. Ali had proved and went on to prove that he was a great. He lost to Frazier the first time, went on to beat Patterson again, lost to Ken norton then avenged that defeat before outpointing Frazier, who had lost to Foreman by that stage. Many people thought Frazier won the second fight, which also proves Frazier's greatness.

With regards to Foreman vs Moorer - yes he got beat in the first 9 rounds, but it's all about the end product. And Foreman knocked Moorer out - that's all that counts. Foreman had the right gameplan, Moorer didn't. There was a reason Atlas screamed the head off Moorer between rounds, telling him not to stand in front of George. That's because Foreman was a murderous puncher.

And there lies the difference, at Vitali's biggest stage, he lost. He beat Sanders, yes, who came in overweight from the golf course - and had already been knocked out TWICE. Ali was unbeaten when Frazier beat him, so was Moorer when Foreman beat him.

The difference in levels is astounding, and I don't care about who weighs more than 200 pounds or not, because it doesn't reflect the quality of the fighter. As I mentioned earlier, both Vitali and Wlad has fought their fair share of fighters from lower weight classes, in fact, Vitali even lost to one.

So i'm not sure what your argument is there. Regardless, there's absolutely no question that Foreman/Frazier/Holmes have better wins on their resumes than Vitali.

[Tommo1]

Well I think Foremans and Holmes wins are comparable to be nice and Fraziers are so bad it's not even worth mentioning, except the Ali anomaly and you know what I think about that! You pretty much summed it up, Ali STRUGGLED, Vitali DOMINATED. Ali was beaten up by Frazier, Vitali wasted Peter, the modern day equivalent. Without his Ali win Frazier is absolutely worthless as is Foreman's win over him.

About the weight class opponents of Vitali, he may have fought FORMER CW's and in Byrd even a former SMW. But the fact is those opponents were and had to be REAL HW's, that is 200+ when Vitali fought them. The opponents of Foreman and Ali and Frazier, half of them are ACTUAL CW's! That is 175-200lbs! Ali was even knocked down by an opponent as low as 185lbs! PRIME Ali!

Weight does not equal quality but aside from skills which are something intangible and hard to measure, weight is the single most important factor. That's why there are weight ranges, because a heavy bum can beat up a far more skilled fighter but who is far lighter. And whilst single or few examples may not factor so highly, when we take a fighters whole record worth of fights the weight becomes VERY important for quality.

Look I don't agree with a lot of what you say either but you have made a lot of decent arguments, some of which I can't exactly refute either but all I can really say is that at the end of the day, Vitali IS GOING TO BE HOF AND ATG! And imo he deserves it!

[Weltschmerz]

Well I think Foremans and Holmes wins are comparable to be nice and Fraziers are so bad it's not even worth mentioning, except the Ali anomaly and you know what I think about that! You pretty much summed it up, Ali STRUGGLED, Vitali DOMINATED. Ali was beaten up by Frazier, Vitali wasted Peter, the modern day equivalent. Without his Ali win Frazier is absolutely worthless as is Foreman's win over him.

About the weight class opponents of Vitali, he may have fought FORMER CW's and in Byrd even a former SMW. But the fact is those opponents were and had to be REAL HW's, that is 200+ when Vitali fought them. The opponents of Foreman and Ali and Frazier, half of them are ACTUAL CW's! That is 175-200lbs! Ali was even knocked down by an opponent as low as 185lbs! PRIME Ali!

Weight does not equal quality but aside from skills which are something intangible and hard to measure, weight is the single most important factor. That's why there are weight ranges, because a heavy bum can beat up a far more skilled fighter but who is far lighter. And whilst single or few examples may not factor so highly, when we take a fighters whole record worth of fights the weight becomes VERY important for quality.

Look I don't agree with a lot of what you say either but you have made a lot of decent arguments, some of which I can't exactly refute either but all I can really say is that at the end of the day, Vitali IS GOING TO BE HOF AND ATG! And imo he deserves it!

Good points made. Most of those midgets from the 'good ole golden days of hw boxing' would be mauled by the Klitschko's.